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Spread? What Is It? Is It Important To Know About? Doubled Dies.

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 Posted 04/03/2018  1:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Spread? What is it? Is it important to know about?

Spread. A term I use loosely and didn't think much about it. But it is important to know what it is. It is used on coin information to denote that spread that happens during the hub process on making the dies to strike coins. The spread sometimes is strong, and sometimes barely existent. What are the extremes?

We are all familiar with the biggest doubled die, the 1955 DDO-001. We often see the devices, but don't think much about the spread. You know the one I'm talking about:

When we see that, the collectors that don't have one, can just look longingly at it. (I'm included also) But looking closer at this doubled die, we can see what spread is:

Note how far and how much space there is between the devices? That is called spread. The distance that the hubs locations were not in correct, exact alignment . If they had been in the right alignment, then this die that was created would of had been just another normal die.
Another view:

Looking at this image and thinking how much spread was between the hubs used in this dies make up created perhaps the largest spread of doubled dies. This one was not the first doubled die that was made, but the one that started the collecting of varieties called doubled dies. Variety collectors started looking even harder at our change because of the new interest of doubled dies.
Even up close this die is even more interesting:

Did you realize that this die was not the first doubled eyelid? We were so amazed at everything else, we didn't even noticed the (1) doubled eyelid before. Also there is a (2) doubled nose spreadd which I think is not known on other doubled dies this strong. Also there are (3) doubled lips. I think this is probably the only cent I know of that shows doubling this profile of the face doubled on this many features of the bust. So probably most collectors have never thought of these doubled devices before because of all the attention of the spread of the devices. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
So if we had a normal die for this year and it had a 'D' mint mark on it, then we would be seeing the devices like this:

Then comparing it to the DDO-001 for the same year:

I put these side by side so you can appreciate the spread compared with a normal coin. Having the images close by allows the eye to compare without loosing perspective of the previous object.

But when we say spread how much is involved? Well I created an image doubled die of my own to show how much spread can happen and what degrees of alignment causes this.

So even a 1 degree rotated spreadd is larger than the big second doubled die for 1969-S DDO-001

(Image by Robec @ Cointalk)

So now you are starting to understand spread. Is it called something else, on the Reverses or even on RPMs? No. Just hub spread on the creation of the die. The best example on the reverse, for hub spread is the 1983P-1DR-001

Even at a distance, we can see the spread on this one. So lets look a bit closer:




Note the spread again on these devices and the last ones:


[red[On the last set of images do you notice something different? The devices on Cent is spread less than the other devices on the other areas of the cent. This misalignment is more off centered in a different area. This die is a class 4 doubled die:

Misaligned in a different location than center will affect the amount of spread on other devices. So some devices will show more/less spread than the rest of the coin. But does these differences make a big difference. Yes. How? If the spread on one device is different even slightly, than that on a different die coins, is likely a different set of finger prints on a crime scene. The coins struck will show this spread as different, because the hub process was slightly different on a different doubled die. Just like fingerprints, they ID or exclude the differences from one die to another.

OK, lets see this in action. We are going to check out another great DDO that we have out there on a proof cent. But now that we are thinking about it spread on devices. We are viewing it as a new event that happens to an old process. To appreciate how strong this die is, I have a side by side of a normal coin and the 1971-S DDO-001 or FS-101:

So what makes these two coins devices as being different? One coin was struck with a normal die, the other struck with a doubled die with a spread. So where am I going with this? When I put two examples together we see how they look alike or different, do we see the difference? On this example were have examples from two different dies. But why are they considered as different doubled dies?

These both look the same at first glance. So why is one marked 101, and the other one 102? There is a difference of spread that makes different. So these two, are from two different hubs on proof dies. How can tell? Looking at the spread. Remember the spread on the class 4 doubled dies is offset. Looking up this information on 'Variety Vista' we will see what is different on the descriptions:
1971-S DDO-001 : PR-1-O-II-C FS-101 (032)
This is telling us that this is a class 2 doubled die. 'C' clock wise spread.
(Link to this site)
http://varietyvista.com/01b%20LC%20...1SDDO001.htm
1971-S DDO-002, PR-2-O-II-E+V-CW from K-6: This is telling us that the is a class 2 doubled die, second one for that year. Not sure that the 'E+V' means in this formula, but the K6 is telling me the center is located towards 6:00 direction. (Not mentioned on the 101) So the differences are there. But how are the other devices are affected will show us the differences. Lets see:
http://varietyvista.com/01b%20LC%20...1SDDO002.htm
Date area:

Note the spread on the FS-102 is stronger on this area of the coin. Weaker on the FS-101
Motto:

Note the top image is the FS-102, that shows stronger spread. So with the centered located toward the 6:00 area, the devices show more spread on the devices towards that direction. So what tells us that they are different?[/red] Spread.

I was going to include the information on RPM spread also on this thread, but thinking now, I'm going to make a different thread for RPMs. So look forward to seeing that soon. So till the next one. Think of spread, how it affects the doubled dies differing them from one another. Without the same spread you don't have the same die. So [u]spread
is the word today.
CoopHome spread
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
04/03/2018 3:09 pm
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 Posted 04/03/2018  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That was a lesson I thoroughly enjoyed. Although I hadn't considered the term "spread" to be of much importance, your explanation and examples changed my mind. I can chalk this great thread up as my LEARNED SOMETHING DAILY goal
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 Posted 04/03/2018  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm hopeing the explanation of the that term will help more because it was always in my head when I look at stuff. Not realizing how important it was in meaning for what I see. When I see a normal device, I don't see spread. When I look at a doubled die, I see spread, along with doubling, notching, distortion of the devices. So when looking at doubling, I'm not staring at MD along a device. I look for the spread of the devices. You often can see the difference in just looking at a coin whether it is there are not, when you know you need to see that in the image rather looking for it. If it is not there, guess what, you won't find it looking at a normal coin. You just know it when you see it.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 04/03/2018  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another great primer for us. Thanks @coop!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted 04/08/2018  4:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bump
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 09/08/2019  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jatour to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So helpful
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 Posted 09/08/2019  11:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinTheTerm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks coop great write up on spread really enjoyed that
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 Posted 09/08/2019  12:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Evan7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent thread Coop! Thank you as always for taking your time and making this thread! Much appreciate it!

Cheers
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 Posted 09/08/2019  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add QuarterHoarder72 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well made educational thread. I learns lots from these types of topics. Thanks coop!
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Best Coins:
1902 Indian cent Off Center
http://goccf.com/t/376888
1972-D Lincoln Cent Major Die Break
http://goccf.com/t/376595
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 Posted 09/08/2019  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Evan7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All of these educational threads NEED to be pinned at the top of the page so new members can read them and have a better understanding what to look for (or at least make one thread and post links to all educational threads)

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 Posted 09/08/2019  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For different topics of my threads, you can click on to this link CoopHome (note when you type that it turns blue) it will take you to a thread of all other threads are located to find more information. Just click on the link and you are there.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 09/08/2019  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Evan7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From the bottom of my heart, thank you Coop. I've learned lots from you and MANY members on here. EV, LOM, Jim, John, CH27 and many more. Can't remember all people that helped me learn

Cheers, my American friends
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 Posted 10/25/2020  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Part two:
MACHINE DOUBLING SPREAD VS MACHINE ALTERED DEVICES:
I've seen some are still having issues about Machine Doubling and hub doubling. So lets approach it from another angle? What is missing on Machine Doubling that a doubled die has? The doubled die have the doubling on the die. Machine Doubling is caused by the machine. This can happen on a normal or a doubled die. Because both are struck with a machine, the dies can experience the same bad affect, when the machine is not working properly. When viewing Machine Doubling note that the overall size of the devices do not change. Just the contour on one side of the devices are altered. (Reduced in over all size) How can I avoid finding Machine Doubling? Stop looking for hub doubling on the outside edges of devices. Look at the centers for the spread, enlargement of the devices.
Note on the first set of images, you can see a doubled die on the upper images, but on the lower images you can see Machine Doubling on the devices. Note how the doubled die has the larger sized devices? Note on the Machine Doubling on the lower images, you can see where the devices are altered by the machine, removing the contour on the devices.

Again look at the upper images? Note how your eyes easily find the hub doubling on those images, because they are noticed by be looking on the center of the devices. Where as the lower devices are affected on the outside edges of the devices?

Note on these images, they are all different types of Machine Doubling. Note the pushed aside of the contour on these devices. Note the flattened edges of the devices? Because the contour was removed. Now look at the 1966 DDO images again? Note that on both sides and top and bottoms, the contour is still present on all sides. What is contour? That is the light flows from light to dark to the bottoms of the devices. On the machine affected devices, this does not occur. The light is on the top, but falls over a cliff to turn totally dark. This is how you can tell if a device is affected or not.
The next image shows a side by side of a normal coin and a machine doubled coin. Without the side by side many may not catch on that the devices were removed, and how both sets of images are the same overall size. So the SBS shows how from one image to look at a different location, your perspective is altered, not showing what you can see next to each other.

Now you can see that they both have a little MD on each, but the overall sizes are the same, because they both were from a regular die. (No doubled die coin present)
Sometimes light plays tricks also. But using the outline of the devices you can base the spread from the bottom outsides of the devices.

Sometimes on proof coins you can see an extension of the devices on the fields. This is called flat field doubling. This is when the proof coin was struck the first time, there was some Machine Doubling present. Because proof coins are struck twice, on the second strike the first Machine Doubling can be flattened and leave an outline outside on the fields around devices:

Again because this is caused by the machine, and not the die, this is not hub doubling. Just another form of Machine Doubling. Note the overall size of the raised devices are the same, just the fields can show the flat field Machine Doubling.

Note on this image that show Machine Doubling, the devices are the same size, but again note the contour was removed off this device. When new ones search coins, they look at the outside edge of devices and see the Machine Doubling and think, I've found a doubled die. But the die didn't create this, the machine altered the contour on the coin after it was struck.
Another form of Machine Doubling happens on incuse devices such as the ARB quarters:

Because of the machine movement before/during/after the strike, this alters the devices. This happens a lot on this area of the reverse. The devices on the dies are raised and when the slightest movement happens it, enlarges the devices. Again this is a striking issue, not a die issue. I found about 70% of these quarters have slight/mild/strong Machine Doubling on them. Only 30% didn't have this MD present on them. There has not been produced a doubled die on these devices on the outer rim. Why? Because these single squeeze dies affects the central areas of the designs on both sides of the coins.
Cents
DOUBLED DIES: SPREAD IS WHAT TO LOOK FOR ON THESE:

As I mentioned earlier, if you learn how to create side by side (SBS) images, these will help confirm if they are the same die, or not. You can even create them with several choices. The best is the have the image of the area in question you are trying to match up, then have it on the center, then you can use different die numbers on top and bottom of the coin in question. Note the example above, how minor details are seen a lot easier when you use this to match up die numbers. In order for a die to match, all hub doubling must be an exact match. A helpful hint on the pre-1990's cents, the mint marked coins will help determine dies also. After 1990 all the mintmarks are all in the same locations. But the Philly varieties make it harder to determine. So the SBS's are helpful to figure out minute differences.

See how looking at them SBS, that it helps to see the differences between dies?
They are also helpful to determine if they are really normal or a variety:


Spotting the spread helps to see how a normal and a doubled die are different:

Some years have really extreme spread. These are very easy to spot and match up:


1972 cents have a lot of DDO's on them. Here is a trick I learned on searching that years doubled dies:

Note on this SBS the bases of the devices are wider because of the spread on the devices:

The width of the devices are the clue on this one, but other times they can be taller. Just depending on the spread whether vertical or horizontal depending on the location on the devices have on the die.
Spread with notching is always a nice thing to see on a doubled die:

Note the selection of different dies and finding the correct spread, is made easier with SBS's.

Sometimes Machine Doubling can alter a device to make it appear that it is a certain die:

Seeming them SBS can make or break the match to a certain die. This one looked so convincing, until you note the spread on the devices.
Nickels:

While this looks like Machine Doubling, note the spread on the devices. How they are larger than the normal examples. So spread is the determining factor.

Note the spread on these devices are vertical. If the spread is on a coin, you don't have to make the devices huge. Note a respectable amount of doubling seen on images this size.

A nice spread towards the rim. I love it when they catch my attenetion!

Note the overall spread on these devices in each direction. Compared with a normal set they draw a crowd. (us)
Lets check a few dimes to see if spread can be seen?

Note the center image. That is a normal die coin with Machine Doubling. Also note the width of these devices. See you look at the center areas for the spread, then you see how enlarged these devices can be, because of the spread. Also note how the centers of the closed devices are smaller, because the spread closes it up.

Again note how the devices are wider on the doubled dies because of the spread of the hubbing on the die creation.

Note again, the spread.

These images show two different DDRs and a normal example in the center.

Again note the closed centers on these devices. Also the size of the devices, because of the spread.

This one is showing die tripling on the tops of the devices. While some think that this is Machine Doubling, note how the devices are made taller because of the spreads of the hub of this die.

Spreads not seeming strong, but not the notching on the corners of the devices.
When you first look at the DDR on this image by itself, you could missing the doubling. But note the width of the spread on the devices?

Same on these devices. A nice spread, noticed by looking at the center of the devices.
Lets check a few quarters:

Note the DDO on the bottom. You can see the spread, but note on the left sides of some devices, you also see Machine Doubling on them.

Note that not all the time you see width added to spreading of the devices. This one is on the verticals of this die.

On this one it looks like it is just Machine Doubling. But note the spread of the devices. They are wider than the normal. So it is hub doubling, a nice DDO.

Note the very nice spread on these devices. The larger devices look even larger.

An example of what looks like classic Machine Doubling, but note the size of the devices. The spread is present, showing that is not Machine Doubling. Nice notching on the corners also.

So I hope this helps you to learn to look for the spread of the devices and forget about looking on the outsides of devices. Because you will find there is Machine Doubling. An alteration of the devices by the machine. Look for the real doubled dies, because there are out there.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
10/25/2020 11:08 pm
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 Posted 10/25/2020  11:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PosiVibes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't read all of the comments. But, as a newbie, I definitely agree with evan. Also, thank you, it was a very informative read, and well written
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 Posted 10/26/2020  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oddguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To coop and all others who respond to questions on this site I want to say thank you. For you to take the time and effort to help us does not go unseen.
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 Posted 10/26/2020  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MOS0239 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another brilliant thread coop! Thank you! !

I'm sure you have, I just can't find it. Have you created a thread like this focusing on Kennedy's?
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