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C'mon PCGS: They can't both be F15 Oregon Commems  
 

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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10469 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If someone measures the amount of wear on a coin as being different from another identically worn coin simply because the date or mint mark has changed, then their opinion is worthless to me.


Your welcome to have your own opinion but you need to realize that isn't how grading works. You don't have to agree with it, but it doesn't make grading wrong just because you want to use your own system.


Quote:
Grades measure wear, that's it.


That's not it and that hasn't been it for at least a century. With what you're saying moderns would have one grade, uncirculated. Gem uncirculated coins would have one grade as well as there isn't wear to measure.

Again you can use your own system if you want, but grading is much much more than just measuring wear. Eye appeal, strike, luster, surface preservation/quality, plancet quality, wear, hits/marks are all taken into account when grading. Every grading class, professional grading video/book will discuss the different aspects that go into a grade and not one of them will say that you just simply measure the amount of wear.


Quote:
Even in circulated grades, particularly XF and AU, eye appeal, luster and strike factor into the grade.


Pillar of the Community
United States
1011 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  7:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
If someone measures the amount of wear on a coin as being different from another identically worn coin simply because the date or mint mark has changed, then their opinion is worthless to me.

Your welcome to have your own opinion but you need to realize that isn't how grading works. You don't have to agree with it, but it doesn't make grading wrong just because you want to use your own system.

I don't use my own system. I follow the Official AA Grading Standards for United States coins. Nowhere in this book does it state that a grade can be different due to a date, mint mark or market value. It defines grade as "The condition or amount of wear that a coin has received."

Of course I do know that uncirculated coins grade on an eleven point scale, those grades being determined by imperfections such nicks, scratches, rub marks, etc.

I think that the primary problem here is the people are trying to correlate grade directly with value. A coin that is a perfect MS-70 (no nicks, scratches, rub marks, etc.) might not be as valuable as a MS-65 simply because it was weakly struck, lacks luster or simply looks bad for some other reason. The point of following a grading guideline is to reduce subjectivity. Using grade as a catchall for the overall appearance of a coin does a disservice because it introduces more subjectivity. Varying the grade because of date, mint mark or market value, introduces even more subjectivity. Subjectivity causes more differences of opinion, not less.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10469 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  8:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I follow the Official AA Grading Standards for United States coins.


That book is actually just them reporting the standards that were used at the time of writing, not actual ANA developed standards that are supposed to be followed. They flat out say under the 21st Century Reality Check section that they are trying to report grading being used in the marketplace not create it. The ANA got out of the grading business when they sold ANACS in 1990.

That said their is a lot of good information in there, but that book isn't the grading bible the the title of it has sort of turned it into.


Quote:
Nowhere in this book does it state that a grade can be different due to a date, mint mark or market value


I don't remember if it says that exactly, but it says it without saying it if it doesn't. That's the whole point of all the sections it has from the striking quality and plancet quality, the dies ect. They're all a part of the grade which can be summed up as date/mm differences from the different quality of the mints, their machines, and the dies they were provided.


Quote:
Using grade as a catchall for the overall appearance of a coin does a disservice because it introduces more subjectivity. Varying the grade because of date, mint mark or market value, introduces even more subjectivity. Subjectivity causes more differences of opinion, not less.


Grading is subjective, always has been always will be. There's a reason why the book goes into depth about how experts of a series can disagree on a grade and how they may change the grade of something overtime.

There is no "God given grade" as they put it and they're 100 percent right. Where the problem lies is when people try and do that. Now if someone is grading AU as VF or G as VF then we have a problem and they're certainly very wrong but a lot coins logical solid arguments can be made for +/1 one grade and experts will be in the range the majority of the time with each other.
.


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United States
532 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  01:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add two_tonevf35 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
@two_tone

How much time elapsed between submitting the two coins? That may be pertinent information.


Same calendar year

PCGS submissions 2005-2015. Mailings(20) Orders(41) / 235 coin attempts. 12 Fails(5%) / Member vouchers(17%) Economy(63%) Regular(14%) Free(3%) Express(3%) / Barber 50c (49%) Classic Commemorative (40%) Hawaii(4%) Other(7%)/ Fails: Cleaned(2) Alt surfaces(1) Scratch(1) Damage(1) "86"(3) 2 Columbian & 1 BTW; Min Grade(2) DNC(2)-Same coin NGC XF40 Barber 50c. Express fees paid by seller (cross guarantee). Kept the coin & later submitted raw: PCGS XF40 LOL! Fails: Econ(8) Regular(2) Express(2); ICG: 30/30 NGC: 0 ANACS: 0
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United States
7394 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  01:06 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
Generally probably 200 or moreish.

I think that gets a prize for the most noncommittal, ambiguous statement ever.


Yes, I am quoting myself. I just wanted to say that the statement struck me as funny because I am pretty bad about using ambiguous qualifiers myself.

I watched the grading challenge video and was underwhelmed, to say the least.
Bad puns make me [sic].

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
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United States
532 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  01:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add two_tonevf35 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Grading is subjective, always has been always will be. There's a reason why the book goes into depth about how experts of a series can disagree on a grade and how they may change the grade of something overtime.

There is no "God given grade" as they put it and they're 100 percent right. Where the problem lies is when people try and do that. Now if someone is grading AU as VF or G as VF then we have a problem and they're certainly very wrong but a lot coins logical solid arguments can be made for +/1 one grade and experts will be in the range the majority of the time with each other.


If "grading is subjective" you just contradicted yourself.

If you said "grading is largely subjective for determining the highest MS and also PO1 coins in a series, and largely objective for grading circulated coins" - we will agree and be closest to the truth, based upon your own statement in bold above.

The statement "Grading is subjective" implies "100%" or "purely" subjective -- which, again, you just demonstrated exactly why this statement is not true. Otherwise, who's to say if a coin is G4, VG8, F12, VF20, XF40? There will be no 'problem' and no one can be 'wrong' if "Grading is subjective."
PCGS submissions 2005-2015. Mailings(20) Orders(41) / 235 coin attempts. 12 Fails(5%) / Member vouchers(17%) Economy(63%) Regular(14%) Free(3%) Express(3%) / Barber 50c (49%) Classic Commemorative (40%) Hawaii(4%) Other(7%)/ Fails: Cleaned(2) Alt surfaces(1) Scratch(1) Damage(1) "86"(3) 2 Columbian & 1 BTW; Min Grade(2) DNC(2)-Same coin NGC XF40 Barber 50c. Express fees paid by seller (cross guarantee). Kept the coin & later submitted raw: PCGS XF40 LOL! Fails: Econ(8) Regular(2) Express(2); ICG: 30/30 NGC: 0 ANACS: 0
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10469 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  02:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If "grading is subjective" you just contradicted yourself.

If you said "grading is largely subjective for determining the highest MS and also PO1 coins in a series, and largely objective for grading circulated coins" - we will agree and be closest to the truth, based upon your own statement in bold above.

The statement "Grading is subjective" implies "100%" or "purely" subjective -- which, again, you just demonstrated exactly why this statement is not true. Otherwise, who's to say if a coin is G4, VG8, F12, VF20, XF40? There will be no 'problem' and no one can be 'wrong' if "Grading is subjective."


I was using subjective in the sense that its not a hard science such as 2+2=4 type thing. We're certainly in agreement that it isn't purely subjective like a favorite flavor of ice cream but there are certainly elements of subjectivity in grading. Even pure technical grading has subjectivity in it as experts can have differing opinions on how bad a hit is or how much to penalize the location of one ect. But yes we're in completely agreement that it's not 100 percent subjective.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10469 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  02:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I watched the grading challenge video and was underwhelmed, to say the least.


It is a bit of a snooze fest as CoinWeek doesn't do the greatest job showing all the coins. Watching someone grade is also rather boring lol. It's not an educational piece anyway, just one of their fun little content productions they did for their site.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5321 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually I find the video a very educational one - especially in the part where the two men are going over the grades.

The name of the guy taking the challenge is Morgan. Mr. Guth administers the challenge and is a former PCGS president.


Someone watching this video with eyes wide open and critical reasoning skills engaged will find that Morgan's ability to grade coins have not been tested at all. Why? Because what are being called the "correct" grades are only the "correct" grades to PCGS.

If these coins were cracked and sent to NGC, then NGC set up the same challenge, it is likely the "correct answers" would be different than when PCGS grade them - despite the coins themselves not having changed at all.

Mr. Guth, at the end, says that people who take this challenge and do badly think they are not capable of grading coins. He correctly follows this up with saying anyone can learn.

But learn what? Mr. Guth SHOULD have been ore accurate by saying anyone can learn to grade using the PCGS system. People taking this challenge are not grading improperly, they simply don't think like someone who has been taught to think according to the PCGS system.

A trained NGC grader may "fail" this same challenge also ...does it make him an untrained grader who cannot grade coins? No, it would mean his training was not PCGS training.

As a side note, I also though it interesting that Mr. Guth made some comment that 50 dealers on the floor of that show would have graded the coin the same way as Mr. Morgan. Mr Guth then goes on to explain why the PCGS grade is the correct answer.

These companies make money b/c people take it on faith that the TPGs give THE correct grade. Yet the same people who put faith in this concept are the ones who know each set of graders from the different companies have their own system and may or may not print different things on the label.

And of course its likely each person who favors one company over another can "prove" to you why they are right.

As has been mentioned, the "4th party" systems can be rationalized away as being legit also. There have been some "5th party" startups in the last few years like MACAC (I think that was its name). Thankfully the hobby is not that far gone...yet. But anymore I won't say, "It can never happen." And when it does, there will those who can explain why its necessary.



- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10469 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Actually I find the video a very educational one


It shouldn't be viewed that way nor is it actually an educational video.


Quote:
As a side note, I also though it interesting that Mr. Guth made some comment that 50 dealers on the floor of that show would have graded the coin the same way as Mr. Morgan


A lot of dealers can't grade, that isn't/shouldn't be a secret. Some can grade somethings but not all. People put FAR to much trust in the "grading" of someone just because they paid for a table or a shop.
Valued Member
Canada
481 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
.It shouldn't be viewed that way nor is it actually an educational video.


Says who? You can learn from "non educational" videos.


Quote:
.People put FAR to much trust in the "grading" of someone just because they paid for a table or a shop.


I think most dealers do however have at least enough grading knowledge to get by, obviously not all but I would guess most. and remember, not everyone capable of grading coins well works for a TPG.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10469 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  6:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think most dealers do however have at least enough grading knowledge to get by, obviously not all but I would guess most. and remember, not everyone capable of grading coins well works for a TPG.


There are some dealers that can grade well and even a couple who are elite graders making more in the market as dealers than as graders, that's certainly true.

That said most dealers aren't great graders, you don't have to be to be a great salesman who can buy low from people who trust them. Most are only good at some series which is fine and not a knock against them.

Think about it this way though why would someone think someone you are trying to sell a coin too who wants to resell it would give you an accurate grade even if they were capable?

Sadly a lot of the most honest ones are the high end ones who don't have to use hype to sell their stuff and deal above a lot of our heads. That doesn't mean they're all bad, but I am thankful for the internet leveling the playing field against a lot of the less honest ones and giving people another outlet to sell.
Valued Member
Canada
481 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There are some dealers that can grade well and even a couple who are elite graders making more in the market as dealers than as graders, that's certainly true.

That said most dealers aren't great graders, you don't have to be to be a great salesman who can buy low from people who trust them. Most are only good at some series which is fine and not a knock against them.

Think about it this way though why would someone think someone you are trying to sell a coin too who wants to resell it would give you an accurate grade even if they were capable?

Sadly a lot of the most honest ones are the high end ones who don't have to use hype to sell their stuff and deal above a lot of our heads. That doesn't mean they're all bad, but I am thankful for the internet leveling the playing field against a lot of the less honest ones and giving people another outlet to sell.


Fair points.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5321 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2018  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It shouldn't be viewed that way nor is it actually an educational video.

Life has taught me that when I do not see everything as an educational opportunity that I blind myself to realities.

There is nothing under the sun which is not able to teach at least one thing.

Advertisers and marketers well know that if they can put their message into an entertaining mode, then they tend to influence the human mind to their advantage through the gate of putting fun ahead of reason. Much theory is believed as fact (and people are manipulated) by many who do not understand this concept. Its Jell-O right? No... only one company can use that name. There are many companies who make this product. But if people are programmed that its all Jell-O, then its a much better chance people will look for that specific name and buy it.


Quote:
A lot of dealers can't grade, that isn't/shouldn't be a secret. Some can grade some things but not all. People put FAR too much trust in the "grading" of someone just because they paid for a table or a shop.

I apologize if I was not specific enough. in context Mr. Guth is saying that "50 dealers" on the floor would give the coin the same grade as Mr. Morgan did, however, they are wrong b/c the PCGS slab says something else. Faith in the company he was president is laudable. But having faith that the company is correct over what a great number of dealers would grade the coin as (and considering it was only one point which he mentions as being trivial several times), reminds me of what a fanboy would do. I did NOT call Mr. Guth an irrational fanboy! Its obvious that Mr. Guth, being in PCGS needs to uphold the company product despite the odds.


Quote:
That said most dealers aren't great graders,


Superlatives are great for helping make a point, but unless the superlative is able to be verified as fact, its use is baseless.

Please share the data showing most cannot grade.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be foolish to say most graders are great graders. I just don't know if we can actually determine which side "most" are on unless there is some verifiable data.


Quote:
Most are only good at some series which is fine and not a knock against them.

Superlative again. So this also may or may not be fact.

Don't get me wrong, I can see how a dealer, just like collectors, would have specialties, But I don't see how saying "most" can be accepted as verifiable fact without the data to show it. Again, to show I am not being argumentative, I will reiterate that you may or may not be right - I do not know and would like to base my own opinion on the facts you use.



Quote:
Think about it this way though why would someone think someone you are trying to sell a coin too who wants to resell it would give you an accurate grade even if they were capable?

Because there still is some honesty out there seems. I base this on CCF posts about such things.

I assume (note that word) that there must be some dishonest and some honest coin dealers out there. in fact after being on CCF, I have read enough to beleive there is more honesty than I initially thought. However...

If someone is selling without taking the time to get opinions from people (like here on CCF!) that willgive an accurate idea of value of a coin, I feel sorry for them, but its their own fault.


Quote:
Sadly a lot of the most honest ones are the high end ones who don't have to use hype to sell their stuff and deal above a lot of our heads.

Superlative. Please share how you know this as fact. I sincerely would like to know. I am not saying it is not fact. I am asking you to share how how you determine things like this please.


Quote:
but I am thankful for the internet leveling the playing field against a lot of the less honest ones and giving people another outlet to sell.

A very good point. I admit that when eBay came out and people had to worry about their reputation for selling, it seemed to bring out a lot more honesty in many areas. I remember the day anyone was branded a fool who would to buy a before ever seeing it and making a firsthand evaluation. Nowadays I have quite a few friends who got some good deals on cars through the internet.

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
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