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Thoughts requested on 1794 Large Cent verdigris - or is it bronze disease?

 
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 Posted 07/03/2018  1:57 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add RubyOpal to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
My friendly local dealer has invited me to make him an offer on this coin. I think the grade would be F Details, maybe even VF Details. I'm really concerned about the pitting and verdigris on the reverse, though. Can early American Cents get bronze disease, or is that just on ancient coins?



Edited by RubyOpal
07/03/2018 3:10 pm
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 Posted 07/03/2018  2:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Most likely Verdigris that has eaten into the coin. It's nasty stuff and this looks like an active infestation.

It would be nice to hear from some of our resident chemists explain the difference between bronze disease and verdigris.
Hi, my name is MikeF and I'm a degenerate coin collector. I also like adventure, big trucks, long walks on the beach and the Kansas City Chiefs.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...the difference between bronze disease and verdigris


That's an interesting question. I've always heard bronze disease associated with older coins, especially those spending a long time near the sea coast or in salt water. So my guess would be that, in that case, the copper is attacked by chlorine / chlorides. I think Verdigris is more or less a slang term for any green residue on copper, since that is the name of the green dye once created in that fashion. Verdigris is caused by acetate reaction, including those associated with sulfur, carbon, chloride, bromide, etc.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kurrency Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Get that coin in a virgin olive oil bath for a few weeks.

KK
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 Posted 07/03/2018  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The verdigris is removable, but the pocks will obviously remain. Up to you to decide if this is an example you'll enjoy living with for possibly a long time.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Get that coin in a virgin olive oil bath for a few weeks.

Sorry Ken, I disagree.
From Coinfrog.

Quote:
The verdigris is removable, but the pocks will obviously remain. Up to you to decide if this is an example you'll enjoy living with for possibly a long time.



This is a high grade coin. Acetone soak then Verdi Care.
Edit.it was first called Verdi Chem.
Edited by bpoc1
07/03/2018 4:46 pm
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 Posted 07/03/2018  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RubyOpal to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Get that coin in a virgin olive oil bath for a few weeks.


Will olive oil stop the corrosion? I thought the best treatment was a tiny bit of Verdi-Care.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Make an offer" is a really bad sign...

Judging from all the surface pitting, the coin has most likely been in contact with salt water, and may have already been cleaned a few times. I'd assume the worst. Bronze disease, probably deep into the coin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_disease

The treatment to stop it is a harsh cleaning regime, followed by chemical treatment to exclude any water and chelate the copper, followed by encapsulation. At that point you really don't have a collectable coin any more, just an interesting pitted artifact. You don't want this thing in contact with any other coins...or even in the same room IMO...

You might want to figure out the Sheldon veriety. If the coin is rare it might be worth a couple hundred dollars even after cleaning and treatment.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
07/03/2018 4:44 pm
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 Posted 07/03/2018  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although the obverse certainly isn't bad, that reverse active corrosion would scare me away.

This coin has the advantage of being an early copper issue. Most early copper has been in a hot market for many years now, even if detailed. But that coin needs serious help to kill that corrosion.

I've long believed there are no bargains in quality coins. Approaching my own purchases with that in mind has helped me pass on coins such as this with real problems just because they might seem cheap.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've been following these lately and that is a very nice coin. I doubt you could get it for 200 bucks but that's what I would throw at him.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RubyOpal to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You might want to figure out the Sheldon veriety. If the coin is rare it might be worth a couple hundred dollars even after cleaning and treatment.


Sheldon 31, one of the most common varieties of 1794.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  7:25 pm  Show Profile   Check coinlover1899's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add coinlover1899 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good looking coin. I would think it is worth $300-$350 retail.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  7:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This coin currently exhibits active verdigris. It appears to be salvageable. A soak in 100% acetone from the hardware store, then a Verdi-Care treatment should help with the problem.
Collector of all classic US coinage.

How to identify cleaned coins: http://goccf.com/t/319679
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 Posted 07/03/2018  11:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This coin currently exhibits active verdigris. It appears to be salvageable. A soak in 100% acetone from the hardware store, then a Verdi-Care treatment should help with the problem.

Best advise. Olive oil contains an acid. Not good for any coins.
just carl
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 Posted 07/04/2018  07:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kurrency Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Use what you want to use for the conservation of the coin. For over twenty years when I was collecting early american coppers I used olive oil to remove verdigris. Olive oil use was there before Verdi-Care. I don't see any reason to buy a product that does the same thing as something I can swipe from my wife's kitchen. Old time EAC collectors have been wiping down their coins for years with olive oil (don't for get to wipe excess off). Just monitor it closely. I've also used a tooth pick to gently cox out some deep down material. If you do nothing it will get worse over many years. If you want to use this Verdi-Care, then use it. Just do something. I don't make any money off of suggesting to use olive oil. Verdi-Care?

KK
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 Posted 07/04/2018  08:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Using Olive Oil may work but you have to remember saying Olive Oil is like saying soap or cars or water. There are so many different kinds of those things and what is in one may well ruin things. Most Olive Oils contain acids and those too vary with the Oils. Just like a soap, water, cars they are all different. It is usually better to be safe than sorry.
just carl
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