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Rare gold coins cache found in Caesaria

 
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 Posted 12/04/2018  07:00 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Most likely dating to the Crusades! Here is the BBC link:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-midd...ast-46429990
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 12/04/2018  08:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A nice find. Sounds as though the owner and his family likely had a terrible fate. Thanks for the link, Dave.
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 Posted 12/04/2018  09:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Amassing how they are always finding Gold and Treasure in the middle East from 100's of years ago .
Don't take life too seriously and remember it is just a passing fad ......
Michael Philip Jagger

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 Posted 12/04/2018  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jskirwin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a reminder that we don't own coins, we just handle them briefly.
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 Posted 12/04/2018  12:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is amazing, it reminds me of a rare Tiberius coin found in Israel. I find it more amazing that these people just hand the treasure over. I have to say, I don't think I would. I don't know what the penalties would be though.

Here is the article:
https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/14/midd...d/index.html
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 Posted 12/06/2018  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AlRashid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
travel coin I would do the same. If I find any ancient item it will be mine lol. a friend of mine who is Chinese recently unearthed a shang ceremonial bronze in a small village in China and shipped it out of China which was sold in a major auction for 500000 when he told me I was so shocked ... lukcy the finders of such jackpots ;)
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 Posted 12/06/2018  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AlRashid great story.
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 Posted 12/07/2018  01:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In most countries newly-found antiquities, including coins as little as 100 years old, belong to the state. The penalties for violation of antiquities laws can be quite severe. Cavalier attitudes toward the theft and illicit trafficking of antiquities (which is the direction this thread has taken) blemishes the reputation of our hobby as a whole and serves to energize the anti-collecting lobby who see all collectors as criminals.
Edited by Kushanshah
12/07/2018 01:42 am
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 Posted 12/07/2018  07:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AlRashid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kushanshah to my view the governments who put the law that all antiquities belong to them are thiefs and corrupted . most civilized and democratic states respect the owner finds. The one who doesn't respect ownership are the dictators and to my view if you find something that belongs to you and not them and you deserve to keep your property no matter how from those who want to steal it from you whether its a dictator state or a simple thieves on the street. you find something its absolutely yours that is the fair law. plus I know for fact in some of those countries who ban ownership of antiquities like iran or China, the corrupt government officials themselves smuggle out antiquities in black market and get the money in their own pocket for those government officials there is no such rules these rules simply applies to regular people without connections . so bottom line is do not respect the laws made by dictators and corrupt governments...
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 Posted 12/07/2018  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of my favorite things about CCF in general, but the Ancients & Medieval sub-section in particular, is our ability to have civil discourse on subjects where there is some disagreement.

As such, I'm really glad @AR that you feel comfortable posting your counter-opinion to @KS. As it turns out, my personal stance on this subject is closer to his and I wonder if you might elaborate on which specific "civilized and democratic states" embrace this absolute finders-keepers attitude toward all ancient coins and other antiquities. I'm sure that they exist, but I'm just not sure which ones they are. Thanks for providing this clarification.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 12/07/2018  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AlRashid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Spence I am also glad we can have discussions on these topics and nothing wrong that we might disagree .. every one has their own opinion and all are respected. The states like England for example respects the finders right to hoard they find. Many hoards found in england were submitted for sale to auction houses by the finder and he get the profits made on that which is very fair to me vs the state take the find and in many cases their heads of state take it to black markets and sell and take the money in their personal accounts and no one would know it ever...
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 Posted 12/07/2018  12:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jskirwin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
so bottom line is do not respect the laws made by dictators and corrupt governments...


Yup. I'm in AlRashid's corner on this one, and believe the UK handles antiquities the best. Allowing the study of hoards by academics before auction and splitting the proceeds between land owner and finder seems to achieve a balance between competing forces. Everyone comes out ahead: Academics are able to study hoards in situ, finders and owners have an incentive to allow this instead of removing the coins from the site and either hiding them or selling on the black market. And government get what they most care about: taxes from the windfalls.

Israel's laws are stricter than the UK's and I have to wonder how many hoards are broken up and lost or artifacts smuggled out of the country, losing their context because of these misguided laws.

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 Posted 12/07/2018  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AlRashid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kudos @jskirwin. You just said what I meant. governments like China do not deserve to keep such items. They have zero respect for property and zero respect for human dignity. If someone finds something the thieves in Chinese system take it away and don't give him a penny. This is very very unfair treatment. So in these type of system , even illegal, I am in for people who find and take it out of country and sell it outside they find they spent hours searching on villages deserts etc so they deserve their time to be paid off if they find something.
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 Posted 12/07/2018  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The point of my previous post is that in addition to individual conscience and due diligence, we must as a community avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Let us all fight the good fight but in doing so, we must never abandon the ethical 'high ground'.

A glimpse of one possible future, coming to a coin show near you:
https://www.coinworld.com/news/worl...rch.all.html
Edited by Kushanshah
12/07/2018 5:09 pm
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 Posted 12/07/2018  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@KS thx for posting this link.

@AR, ok yes I agree that the UK seems to struck a nice balance on this issue.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 12/07/2018  8:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jskirwin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kushanshah
Thanks for that link. There's a big grey area between cultural theft and artifacts of little cultural significance which it sounds to me that the German police exploited in this case.
It kind of reminds me back in the day when marijuana busts would make the news and the cops would announce something like seizing "100 plants with a street value of $250,000," and my pothead friends would be like "Which street is that on? I want to sell weed there."

Coins are by design meant to circulate which makes them different from grave goods or other antiquities in my mind, but it's easy to imagine getting in trouble with the law over our hobby which is why we need to pay close attention to it. Thanks again for reminding us that our passion could be easily misunderstood in some corners.
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