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(Is This?) A Fake Coin Seller On E-Bay?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 1,146Next Topic  
Valued Member

Canada
174 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2018  09:28 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Loruca to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I cannot be 100% certain, but all his coins while at first glance generally appropriate, have some fishy similar characteristics, I won't say immediately what I see, but I want to know if other people are having the same feeling.
https://www.ebay.ca/usr/breggmann?_...047675.l2559
See for example this recent sale:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Russia...AOSwPAJcDQVC
Pillar of the Community
Canada
8402 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2018  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This seller has been reported previously on the CCF Forum for selling counterfeits.
The problem is proving what is counterfeit and what is genuine.
As far back as over two years ago there was a lengthy discussion about him.
http://goccf.com/t/260946&SearchTerms=breggmann
Edited by JimmyD
12/20/2018 12:17 pm
Valued Member
Lithuania
363 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2018  2:36 pm  Show Profile   Check giedrius's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add giedrius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All these cheap coins of this seller are genuine https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Polish-silv...dp:rk:6:pf:0 but not the Russian ones :)
Catalogue of Lithuanian half-groats 1495-1529 http://goccf.com/t/282866
Valued Member
Canada
174 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2018  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Loruca to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With all the incredible work Bobby does we haven't been able to take this seller down?
'cause some of the coins are as obvious as it gets!
Pillar of the Community
United States
5070 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2018  6:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Loruca I suspect that eBay is still following the policy of not terminating seller IDs even for posting multiple fakes. In 2013 the Coin Watch Committee (CWC) terminated thousands of ID names for fraud involving numismatic forgeries of this type. The CWC reduced the number of cases of fraud to under 6%.

That CWC activity resulted in threats of lawsuits from several of the large overseas dealers in this garbage. The lawyers at eBay determined that to defend potentially very costly nuisance lawsuits by these large dealers (China, Israel and former USSR locations were identified as locations) that eBay had to eliminate all in house access to expertise that could professionally identify fakes.

The new policy put in place at that time was to terminate fakes but only on a one by one basis after a complaint was received via the "Report this item" process from a source deemed by eBay to be "credible".

That new policy can (IMO) be directly blamed for the fact that these sellers are still in business and have increased in boldness. The management at eBay did what was best economically for the eBay bottom line and defends those actions with the legally defensible policy of "Let the buyer beware".

Anyone buying anything via Ebay, an auction house or at a local flea market must protect himself from buying fake materials. At least on eBay they have a buyer protection plan so most people could get their money back. So it is more important than ever to educate yourself first. As has been reported most of this garbage is easily identified if not in the pictures than after they arrive.

When you buy a fake - REPORT IT and get your money back from eBay. That is the best you can do at this time.

These sellers of fake coins are not going to go away.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1012 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2018  12:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
apparently he does not stop:
https://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/123535160082
as fake as can be, many people bidding
Pillar of the Community
United States
5070 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2018  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very little to nothing can/will be done about this guy or those like him. This fellow is located outside the US. So do you know for certain that what he is doing is illegal where he lives and works?

There are many places in the world where it is NOT against the law to make unmarked replicas of coins, antiques, etc., etc. So in his home location this fellow may be doing nothing wrong.

The law in the US is clearer. We have the Hobby Protection Act. Fine, but who is breaking that law if you were to buy this coin and have him mail it to the USA? The simple answer is that you the importer is the only party breaking the law. The fact you are a victim of fraud is of no consequence to the law - although you will likely never be charged with a crime due to that defense.

So the question is how do you stop someone like this?


The only way is for no one to buy his fakes.

Forgers only survive by selling their wares, if no one bought them - they would soon be out of business.

However, the greedy re-sellers (a.k.a criminals), the ill informed and novice buyers seeking quick profits will keep these guys going for...

All you or I can do is to keep spreading the word to:

1. Buy only from people you know.
2. Buy only items you are personally familiar with.
3. Avoid "bargains" - they do not exist in reality.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
1012 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2018  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the dealer seems to know this and comments below the description of the "coin"

"If for any reason you feel like you may be unhappy with buying this coin or feel like you might complain after receiving it please refrain from bidding. So please find out all concerns before you place a bid. Feel free to ask any quistions. Thank you!"

the fake was sold for 355$
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United States
30708 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2018  09:49 am  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Very little to nothing can/will be done about this guy or those like him. This fellow is located outside the US. So do you know for certain that what he is doing is illegal where he lives and works?


If the seller sets their listings to be shipped to the US, and they are counterfeit, then they are not allowed to be listed on eBay, regardless if their local eBay allows them. However, I am unaware of any eBay site that allows counterfeit coins.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5070 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2018  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
nss-52 You say:

Quote:
If the seller sets their listings to be shipped to the US, and they are counterfeit, then they are not allowed to be listed on eBay, regardless if their local eBay allows them.


That policy needs to be enforced because the sellers are "criminals" in our sight and therefore they are unlikely to self police.

So who exactly enforces that policy?

Right now sellers of NF items can post their goods as long as they restrict sales to exclude the US. So that works - right? WRONG.

I have tested the "no shipping to the US provisions". I ask the seller, "If I win will you ship to the US?" You will get the answer "Of course." There is nothing to stop the seller from shipping anywhere after the sale is complete.

So the policy in place does not work.

You also say:


Quote:
I am unaware of any eBay site that allows counterfeit coins.


Check France and Spain for auctions that can not ship to the US. You will find them there. Even the CWC could not stop French and Spanish auctions because of push back.

The policy at eBay sounds simple enough in theory but does not work in practice. The reason is that forgery (NF) is a large organized business pulling in hundreds of millions of dollars a year. They the forgers operate to make money and they have lawyers. eBay actually was coerced to operate on the let the buyer beware principle or face lawsuit. That was because if eBay claims to have the ability to discern a NF from a genuine coin they can legally be treated as an auctioneer. That implicates them in the liability for fraudulent sales. That is why eBay now insists that they have ABSOLUTELY NO ABILITY to judge the authenticity of items placed for sale. They could but choose not to for self protection. They also will at their own cost refund the price for the purchase of a fraudulent item via their guarantee policy.

Another reason why the simplicity of the eBay policy is doomed to fail is because of terminology. The policy refers to "counterfeit" items but includes within their definition the legal as well as the illegal (fraudulent types). If eBay did have a working policy to stop posting of counerfeits (using their own definition) - it would have to include ancient fourees even the versions slabbed by NGC also all of the Machin Mills coins, Non-Regal UK coppers, the Canadian Blacksmith tokens as well as all Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit (CCC). All of these coins legal or not would have to be terminated. (The legal CCC coins are all allowed by ANA rules as long as they are properly described so there is no fraud).

The problem today in the world of coin collecting is Numismatic Forgery not the various types of CCC's. Numismatic Forgeries (NF) are/were made recently to fool collectors and defraud them. Older non-monetary items made while the originals were circulating (particularly those that circulated in the US before 1857) are collectable and completely legal.

Remember that the Coin Watch Committee initially was created with input from the ANA and others to try to curtail or at least reduce fraud on eBay.

That committee did not work out because of the threat of lawsuits from the well financed forgers operating in China and elsewhere. The CWC had reduced fraud several percentage points while allowing most CCC's to post uninhibited provided they were correctly identified.

Now on eBay items can be reported by individuals or by certain key players like Bobby. The coins reported are by in large removed. But under the law the seller has equal rights with the reporting party and if the seller chooses to dispute the claim of fraud eBay would have to make a decision. The question is;


Quote:
BASED ON WHAT does eBay make the decision?


With no experts on staff and no other in house expertise eBay can not make the call. If they do they face the same legal issues as when the CWC existed.

The forgers have for the present adopted a "no complaint" position because they have a few items removed but their bottom line is not harmed. Their identities are not terminated and related identities are also not sanctioned. More fake coins sell than get terminated as it stands.

If that changed and the forgers started loosing money instead (as they apparently did when the CWG existed) the threats would return.

So I stand by my comment that the only way to stop fraud is to stop buying frauds by educating the buying public.

Quote:

With no sales the forgers would stop.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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