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1911-D Lincoln Wheat Cent RPM-004, FS-504 Graded Questionable Color?

 
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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/17/2019  10:45 am Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I can't see any reason why this coin went Genuine-UNC Details Questionable Color, BN by PCGS. Any help understanding this would be appreciated. Looks like a normal toning to light brown from red to me. I get that it graded BN, as it's not RD, but questionable color? I see nowhere that this coin has been treated in any way. Thought surely it would go MS-66 BN.

1911-D Lincoln Wheat cent RPM-004, FS-504





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 Posted 07/17/2019  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add levelsofmadnes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello tropicalbats,

PCGS pic shows a spot below the crack on the bust and yours does not. Something happen or is it just lighting?

Your pictures shows a great looking coin.

Can we get a picture of it in the slab?

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 Posted 07/17/2019  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tunnioc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Wheat lines look to be filled with something..
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 Posted 07/17/2019  11:19 am  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Still a very nice coin though!
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
1973 D Lincoln Memorial cent With Recurring Die Subsidence Error Information. http://goccf.com/t/304624
Machine Doubling tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
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 Posted 07/17/2019  11:41 am  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can post a pic of the coin in the slab in a few days. Just got the results in and the TrueView is up but don't have the coins back. But yes, I see something below the bust that doesn't seem to have been on the coin when I took the pics before sending it in. But how does one arrive at questionable color? My pics show natural luster and the coin has excellent cartwheeling. I'm just not getting what they are seeing to kill such nice coin.
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 Posted 07/17/2019  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim0815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If both of your pics were taken at the same angle and lighting maybe they were questioning the darker color of the obverse compared to the lighter color of the reverse? I don't understand this one either....
Edited by Jim0815
07/17/2019 11:56 am
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 Posted 07/17/2019  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome back,hope the research went well and their population is growing....I gave up trying to understand their mind set on some coins submitted...

Your cent looks wonderful...I do agree with what Jim0815 is seeing...
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 Posted 07/17/2019  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree the obverse/reverse color contrast raises a flag.
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 Posted 07/17/2019  12:49 pm  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reverse looks like it had an old cleaning in the past.
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
1973 D Lincoln Memorial cent With Recurring Die Subsidence Error Information. http://goccf.com/t/304624
Machine Doubling tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
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 Posted 07/17/2019  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS had doubt about the originality of the coin. When they have doubt they don't straight grade.
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 Posted 07/17/2019  1:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Panther to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Definitely looks cleaned at one point. The beard looks odd also to me.

Dan
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 Posted 07/17/2019  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Overall the coins luster looks flat or diminished based on the PCGS picture and your pictures.

If it looks like that in person, likely it looks like it was cleaned at some point and some luster stripped and then re-toned some to try and hide the cleaning, and why they call it questionable color and didn't grade it. But what appears to be diminished luster to me seems like the likely reason as to them making this determination. it's not reflecting right for a coin that looks like it's still near red and just starting to go over to brown. hard to tell from a picture and get a feel for how the light reflects, but these pictures make the coin look lifeless and flat in my opinion.

Could be me but PCGS usually takes pretty nice pictures for the trueview and luster usually shows up well if it's present. and my thought on it is based off these pictures, but even if I search PCGS Trueview Lincoln cent, even the straight graded brown ones don't look as flat as this Trueview does, and they show more luster than your trueview does.
I think the color is wrong for the amount of luster that's still present I guess is what I'm trying to say, it should be darker I think.

Again, this is based off pictures and in person might be different, and yeah, I'm not a professional of course, just one person's opinion on why it was details.

I can be wrong, I'm not a professional. The difference in the obverse and reverse color could also simply be different placement under his light when the picture was taken and it's hitting differently. The Trueview doesn't show that much of a difference from obverse to reverse if any at all. Suggests to me instead of "cartwheeling" like it should, the luster is "flooding" or even "dampening" the light like a circulated coin would where the luster has been diminished.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
07/17/2019 3:18 pm
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 Posted 07/17/2019  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for the excellent comments. Still trying to make sense of it but by reading the comments at least I am getting an idea of what might have been going on.

So just for fun I did a composite of a 1946-S IMM-001 I sent in as well. It's full luster, RD, and went MS-64. I see little difference between the light highlights on this coin and the 1911-D, although yes the 11-D is a bit lesser since it isn't full red but toned to just brown. In hand it's still quite bright, but not enough for a RD listing.

And of note, the 11-D got "questionable color" not "improper cleaning" and still I see nothing wrong with the color of the coin.

It is what it is, but puzzling about what to do with it now.


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 Posted 07/17/2019  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jim0815 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still do not see whether by color or anything else why it would be questionable. Above my head I suppose...
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 Posted 07/17/2019  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a puzzler for sure. All I can think of is to crack and submit to NGC.
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 Posted 07/17/2019  8:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tropicalbats, Great coin! First, apart from the RPM, that's a whale of a strike for a 1911-D.

Second, the only thing I can see that may have caused the graders to wonder is the discoloration behind Lincoln's head. They may have assumed that it was the residue of the original color and that the coin had been dipped improperly in the past and re-toned.

I just don't see it. There was a lot of tolerance in the alloy for the early Lincolns, and this accounts for the yellow-gold to orange-red to dark red appearance of BU examples. Your coin looks to be within the range of acceptable natural coloration. A quick glance at auction catalogs for the 1909-1914 Lincolns shows a remarkable range of descriptions of color of BU/Gem BU cents. Photos are hard to work with for color, because of differences in cameras, digital rendering, lighting, and monitors. I agree with the upthread comments that the coin looks flat, but add that variances in tin content in particular can mute coloration. For a more modern example of this effect, consider the color variations in BU shellcase cents.

JMHO. Again, it's a fantastic strike for a 1911-D.
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