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What Is A Die Gouge? Different Than Die Scratches, Dents And Chips?

 
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 Posted 08/06/2019  10:05 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
What is a die gouge?
On each die, the devices on the die are negatives. What does that mean? On a coin, what you are seeing is a positive. The bust is raised, the devices are raised and the lower part on the coin is the fields. So if you were going to make coins stuck with a die, how would you need to create the raised devices, the incuse devices, and the bust that towers over everything, also the rim? In order to make these raised and incuse devices on a coin you would need a negative die, to strike up a positive coin. On the die, the things that are the tallest on a coin, are deepest on the die. So the bust, and the buildings, would need to be deep into the die. On the die, the devices are mid devices, that need to be raised, are incuse in the die. (sunk into the die) Then the shallow devices, (small devices like inititals) are the just below the surface of the die. But the fields are the outside of the die. (In order to make incuse devices on the coins, they need to be raised on the die)

(these are simulations)

So first off we note that the letters are mirrored. When the coin is struck they will appear normal and raised.
This is what a die looks like.

Here is a closer view of a real die:


Now on this image the devices are incuse sunk into the die. But note the rim with the red arrow on this image. The die is rounded at the edge of the die, but the rim is formed by the step down of the die, with the collar keeping it rounded. "But what has this got to do with die gouges? We are just getting to that."
The fields on the outside face of the die, any die polishing can be done to remove minor imperfections that happen to a die. Usually die clashes and heavy die flow line removal. But when they are polished, they are not left in the machine to do this. They are taken to a shop inside the mint that handles this task:


Sometimes while the dies are being handled, die events happen to the dies. Contact marks from other dies can place a dent on a die:



When the dies hit together they make an incuse mark, on the die. So when a die has an incuse mark, it will leave a raised area on every coin struck with it. If the die dent is deep, and it can't be sanded/polished off, then it has that mark until it is retired. To live out the dies life, with that injury to the die. (These are nice markers for Variety coin identification)


Sometimes they may drop off the table and damage an edge of a die.

Now we are ready for the information about die gouges. A die gouge is a contact mark on the die from being miss handled. This is usually a line that is not part of the design of the coin. They are usually near the outside edges of the dies:

Die gouges, because they are on the fields, can appear to flow behind the devices:

They are most of the time wider than a die crack.
Die gouges are not the same as die chips:

Die scratches are left over marks from polishing that were left over on the dies:



The big mark on the bay, is a new die clash mark, that happened after the previous polishing.
Die scratches can also disappear behind devices:

Because the dies are worked over with lapping a machine, the lines can flow behind the devices, because the devices and design is deeper into the dies than the field.
Hope this helps answer the question. Sorry for the long answer, but sometimes know why they happen, will help to realize what they are.

CoopHome : Gouge - chip - scratches - dents
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
08/06/2019 10:23 pm
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 Posted 08/06/2019  10:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice and informational! I think this one will be most useful to the new collectors.

-CH27
Collector of U.S. varieties and errors
Edited by CoinHunter27
08/06/2019 10:46 pm
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 Posted 08/06/2019  10:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinTheTerm to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
great info as always coop!
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 Posted 08/06/2019  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very helpful thread Coop! You're much better than I am!

This was added to my bookmarks. Thank you very much for your time as always!
Edited by Errers and Varietys
08/06/2019 10:55 pm
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 Posted 08/07/2019  12:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add owatchman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Coop! Great info for any collector!
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 Posted 08/07/2019  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Evan7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very informative post. Thank you!
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 Posted 08/07/2019  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rabbithole1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you so much for that post!
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 Posted 08/07/2019  01:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After newbies introduce themselves and hit "post" this thread should pop-up on their screen....and Coop if you would have shown the difference of a scratch ( PMD) vs. die scratches, it could eliminate so many questions...just my 2 cents...Thanks Coop we all cherish your teachings...
I'm by no means a pro and will never claim to be...just my 2 cents
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 Posted 08/07/2019  01:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hole_in_pocket to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Glad you posted this coop! Hmmm I wonder what go it into your head to do that... ; ) thanks!
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 Posted 08/07/2019  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you save images that will help you, you can add them to your educational files. Or you can copy the whole page and save it in Word, even the images. Just try to break it down into smaller sections and keep adding to the file gradually.

some may wonder how long it took me to prepare the thread. I use MS-Word, type in the information and add the addresses of the links and tags complete it, then re-read the whole thread again editing more/taking out adding the color tags, underline tags, bold tags and the italics tags. Took about one hour. When it was already to post, copy paste it on the forum in two steps. The body first, Copy, Paste, done. Then copy the line for the title and add a bit. Done. Easiest way to create a thread without taking too long or time out on the forum. Works great for me.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
08/07/2019 1:04 pm
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 Posted 01/30/2020  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sirguardian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This was very helpful here. I am fairly new... but watching the videos and have the books (which are not always helpful) I can only look to others who have the knowledge. I pray for your patience. Thanks
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 Posted 06/18/2020  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shaney777 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, coop! Any info on how to identify die dent vs. die gouge? Anything specific to their appearances that would differentiate them?
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 Posted 06/18/2020  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Check sheldius's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add sheldius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great info Coop. Is it possible to stick these types of informational posts to the top of the forum? Would help alot.
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