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Calling 8 Reales Sleuths...

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 517Next Topic  
New Member

United Kingdom
3 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  09:58 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Gusman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
So another 8 Reales Thread...

I recently bought this 1798 Mexico 8 Reales from a respectable looking dealer in the UK (easy to return if fake). It doesn't look like an obvious fake, and has some interesting looking strikes in it. It's not magnetic.

However. It clocks in at 25.09g - a bit lighter than comfortable (27.07g is listed). Could this be down to the strikes - particularly the ones on the reverse? It's also got some funny things going on at the edge: on point looks like the metal has been pushed over the markings (pictured). Finally, the colour just seems a bit dull to me compared to other silver coins.

What do you all think? Thoughts welcome!


Valued Member
Canada
160 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  10:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ironhorse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I like the coin...the chopmark's give it character
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Canada
3425 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  10:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We have an 8 reales expert here-I forget his handle. He wrote a book.
New Member
United Kingdom
3 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gusman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks - I think swamperbob is the handle (I've read a few of his posts! )
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United States
1039 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If your scale is accurate then you already have your answer. There is no way for circulation wear to account for that much weight loss. I'm guessing it's a modern fake with artificial wear and toning.
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United States
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United States
4946 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  12:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gusman

I am the fellow who wrote the book "Counterfeit Portrait Eight-Reales".

The coin is Counterfeit in my opinion but one that is interesting and should not be passed off too quickly as a recently made Numismatic Forgery. A forgery is basically worthless but a counterfeit is not. How much it is worth varies based on the method of manufacture.

I am particularly intrigued by the edge and what I think I may see.

The design of the coin is completely correct because it was obviously copied from a genuine coin. The edge design is wrong. The method of how the faces were copied is interesting. Did you notice the many round raised metal lumps on the surface? Under the 1 in the date, above the 7 near the edge of the bust, on the crossbar of the A in Carolus, on the reverse on the stop between the mint mark and denomination, on the stop between the FM assayer initials, on top of the I the N and the D in IND etc., etc.

This could be some form of early electrotype.

I believe it is worth researching further.

You indicate you bought it from a dealer who would take a return. Would you be willing to "return" it to me for the same amount? As long as the price is in the correct range I certainly would love to document it.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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United States
1501 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  02:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We have a match!
New Member
United Kingdom
3 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  04:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gusman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher - do you think that is the original? Interesting that they have identical chopmarks, but the ones in your photo have additional chopmarks - the ones on his neck (perhaps added after mine was made/copied from the original?).

swamperbob - so interesting. I'd be happy to send you (logistics could be problematic as I'm in the UK). I'd send you an email but as a new user I'm not allowed to! Best way round that?
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United States
1501 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both fake!
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United States
1682 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  4:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great matchup Realeswatcher, score one for your team! Not often I see exact matches for the various "fakes" floating around the marketplace. The addition of a few extra chops was a nice touch by the maker.
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
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United States
4946 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  01:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The second copy has a second edge applied over an initial edging. The second edge looks like it was applied one rectangle then one circle at a time.

Very labor intensive. Not something I expect or have seen on recent numismatic forgeries.

Have either of the coins had density checked?

I notice both coins have the same small round dots so perhaps the process to make the die included a step where electrotyping of some sort was employed.

Still interesting at least to me.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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