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Counterfeit 8 Reales

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 433Next Topic  
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United States
69 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2020  10:46 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dar76124 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I was surprised to find this in an old collection I purchased, I don't think the previous owner knew it was fake. Any chance this is a contemporary counterfeit or is it a more modern Chinese fake?



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Austria
537 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2020  11:01 am  Show Profile   Check coinworldtv's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello, larger photographs might be of help here.
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United States
69 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2020  12:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dar76124 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
larger photos added. Futher information, weight is about 10% light and it's definitely not silver.



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1490 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2020  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its a contemporary circulating counterfeit although as virtually the entire Spanish-American numismatic world knows Bob Gurney (Swamperbob) is the expert on these - my discussions with Bob several years ago when I wrote a chapter on these Cap and Rays CCCs - my research seems to confirm that the technology of silvering has gone for SOME pieces from mercuric silvering or Sheffield plating to silver electrodeposition. This is what I believe is what we have here ... we see the typical silver peeling, some green leaching of the underneath base metal which is normally a high copper host as explained in Forgotten Coins in the World section of CCCs as this to me appears as a THIN silver coating and NOT the THICKER Hg/Ag or Sheffield types. Silver electrodeposition can not really be verified by XRF but will need SEM/EDS where the instrument can confirm THIN silver layer applied over a copper host.Preliminary XRF readings show high Ag silver readings sometimes nearing 99% since silver electrodeposition process is virtually applying pure silver on the surface. This makes many fakes in TPG holders virtually impossible to detect if in an UNC preservation - unless comapred to lesser preserved specimens from a coin plate match in a future reference book - still not here. The trouble with this series is the number of different varieties so its been a tall order to come out with a book on these types. Perhaps Bob can do an overview of these or perhaps he has something in the works? So its of the period - and its value is subjective. Normally $50-up/specimen depending on grade/variety/etc.. Portait CCCs from the GNL have grown in popularity recently as seen in current EBAY auctions. I believe many MNA members are starting to acquire a taste for these types. I sold off all of mine except for around 16-20 pieces - some of my favorites.

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
05/30/2020 2:52 pm
Valued Member
United States
69 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2020  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dar76124 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the detailed reply.
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4979 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2020  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
dar76124 The coin you have posted is in fact a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit - the coin belongs to a Riddell Family group 365/371. I have been working on that family of counterfeits for over 4 decades and it is rather complex. The Family type is overall extremely common, however there are many scarce mules of various dies.

This counterfeit Family was created from hubbed dies. That is a fact that it took me many years to prove to my own satisfaction.

I started with the Riddell # 365 and #371 coins which represent 4 of the basic dies. Each of these matings is extremely common. The two mules of these dies 365/371 and 371/365 are also very common almost as common as the normal matings shown in Riddell.

Later, I began to notice dies that were slightly different in the finishing touches. Most of these require specimens that are VF or better to confirm. I also use die chips and breaks to identify dies.

What you have found is an example of the Riddell # 365 cap die identified by two die chips above the rays at the 10 o'clock position (A REVERSED CHECKMARK AND A CRESCENT). The eagle die is a crested eagle die similar to the # 371 eagle die but with a small chip along the eagle's left wing and a longer crest than the # 371 die. It is a variety I tentatively refer to as 371C. This die pairing appears to be somewhat scarce. This particular copy is better than any I already have.

If you ever decide to sell this coin please let me know I am definitely interested and would be very competitive.

In case you are unaware of what Riddell is, it refers to "The Monograph of the Silver Dollar Good and Bad" published in 1845 by Dr. John Leonard Riddell who was the Melter and Refiner at the New Orleans branch mint. The Monogram is illustrated with type-metal casts of 292 counterfeit coins that Riddell removed from circulation coinage in New Orleans between 1839 and 1844.

John Lorenzo remembered correctly we have discussed that the 1830s Do RM series represents a period in the history of counterfeiting illustrating the transition of silver plating from Sheffield plate to electroplating. Without a detailed in hand study, the precise nature of the silver plate is unknowable.

If I had to guess based on the picture alone, the coin looks like it may be a thin Sheffield plate over a German Silver core based on several wear points where the transition is exposed (for example the eagle's lower leg). That would place the date of manufacture sometime after 1836. However, between the oak leaves on the reverse are some spots that look like a dark copper alloy is exposed. That would be an older form of core used for over 30 years ending about 1836.

It is less likely to be an early electro-plate (ca 1841/2) because they rarely corrode like this piece has at the high points. I can not rule electroplate out entirely at this point. Surface scans and XRF might both be required.

A very interesting piece worth substantially more than John's $ 50 estimate as a study piece. I may be just the prod needed to confirm the 371c die.

Do not cut or clean this coin. You will damage it's value for testing.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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1512 Posts
 Posted 06/01/2020  08:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, did you see this 1833 Durango CC that was up on eBay about month, month and a half ago... with the French die obverse but Mexican eagle reverse?

I saved the pics quickly, was considering offering on it... got distracted from it and then some days later, I couldn't find it in current or completed listings (which it what happens maybe I got pulled down by eBay or ended early by the seller).


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 Posted 06/01/2020  8:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher That is the Riddell # 367 - I have never actually seen one. I also missed it. Too bad.

The eagle die seems to be modelled after Guanajuato.

Do you recall who posted it?

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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United States
1512 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2020  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No, sorry... and if I saved it to an eBay list, the listing apparently being pulled removes it from that, too. I might have the item page link somewhere in my browser history, but I'd have to dig for it at home.
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United States
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 Posted 06/02/2020  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher Thanks
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4979 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2020  01:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
dar76124 In hand the coin represents a new addition to the Riddell 365/371 family group. I refer to it as 365/371c. The third die mated with the 365 obverse.

This third reverse die is far less common that the other two known reverse dies. It is as close to an identical match to the other two dies with the exception of different die chips in the die face as I believe is possible. I further believe it proves the 365/371 family was made with hubbed dies. Since the original dies (hubs) for Durango were manufactured in France it is very likely that the same makers used the die tools in their possession to manufacture hubs to make working dies for this rather common series. France makes more sense than the UK or US based on the precise match of the die elements for these counterfeits.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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