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What Has Been Your Worst Grade Experience With A Third Party Grading Company?

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 Posted 08/02/2020  1:03 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Hidalgo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
What has been your worst grading experience with a Third Party Grading ( TPG) Company? I've read different experiences on different websites.

Usually, reports tend to be favorable. Such positive reviews tend to distort the services a TPG may provide - as I'm certain, none of them are perfect.
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 Posted 08/02/2020  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Which story do you want? I've got many lol. I've almost entirely stopped using NGC because if you send in a coin with any degree of color they instantly call it AT. I've sent in 9 coins with significant toning to them in the last 5 months all were given AT labels. 7 were cracked and went PCGS and all straight graded. Heck, one of them that got AT I sent in the original mint packaging! Like! What!
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 08/02/2020  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure if this really qualifies for what you're asking, but it's my worst result from PCGS.

Here's a 1909-(P) VDB that came back with Uncirculated "Details" and "Tooled Edge." While it was disappointing, I'm sure it was correct. The edge of the coin shows an area that has been sanded and buffed. No idea what was there, but it someone tried to cover it up.

This has taught me that there are three sides to a coin, not just two.

Click the picture for a larger image
ANA Member ID: 3203813 - CONECA Member ID: N-5637
"Shine, shine a Roosevelt dime. All the way to Baltimore and runnin' out of time." Tom Waits-Clap Hands



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 Posted 08/02/2020  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a 3CS that the blind squirrel grading company called VG8. It's actually XF-40 and they also missed the significant RPD.
-----Burton
47 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, OnLinw Coin Club
Owned by four cats and a wife of 37 years (joined 1983)
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 Posted 08/02/2020  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The more I dig into the companies, the less and less I am impressed with them. They started out being seen as a sham way to make money off of the hobby. Other countries even looked at us as foolish Americans for having too much spending money and paying self proclaimed "experts" to tell us something we could figure out for ourselves! And now we have people paying the CAC "experts" to evaluate the TPG "experts'" opinions! What is next?






All joking aside:

Here are some posts form other threads plus a small bit of my own research thrown in:
http://goccf.com/t/346174#2967242

Words from a respected CCF Family memeber who, sadly, is no linger with us.http://goccf.com/t/130186


Collect what you like, but remember to buy the coin and not the slab.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
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 Posted 08/15/2020  1:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add freddo30 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Earle42, I absolutely love your 'photo'. It's not as far fetched or comical as some may think. It may be the next big thing. As the feeders line up to shove the next 'big thing' down my throat, you've issued a very clear warning to the sheep : "do not get in line in front of the slaughterhouse".
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 Posted 08/15/2020  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks - that's my goal!

I find it sad that when slabbing first started out, I remember joking with some other collectors in the area that, "watch, someone will come up with a scheme for making money for evaluating the slabbing company 'experts" opinions.
But we knew (this is not being mean, this is being factual of what we said back then) that no one would ever stupid enough to fall for a second tier of evaluation. Oh well
Dare I say, we can look back and CACkle?

If someone understands the facts behind the slabbing companies and still likes slabs, I say all the more power to them. A hobby is about fun. And the fact is that slabs can make for a great presentation and organization.

I just do not appreciate that people have been brought to believe these companies are what their marketers claim they are. until they get a verifiable and scientific system up and going (it IS 2020 isn't it?) instead of taking money for a non-verifiable product, I personally will continue to see them as taking advantage of people.

In fact I can see one day the marketers finally deciding the companies have milked the system enough and will then start a new campaign to be paid to re-slab EVERYTHING all over again:

New and Improved! Our company has moved into the new millennium (finally after the tech was available in the '90s)": LSCDG (Laser Scanning and Computer Diagnostic Grading) is here (again - we got rid of it in the 90s - too final). How you can sleep at night knowing your coins graded by the old subjective system may not have the actual/verifiable grade they deserve to have on their slab?
Special - send in your old slabs (plus any priceless heirloom) and we will re-slab them all for only twice the price you originally paid! You will forever have the assurance you have THE correct grade (until we change our grading algorithm in the computer next time we want to get money from re-slabbing everything again).

How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
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 Posted 08/15/2020  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My buisness partner was an Anacs and later NGC grader "back in the day". I got a really nice 1879-O Morgan. Well struck, PL, no significant marks on it at all. My partner said "Send it in. It is an easy "66", with a serious shot at a 7 holder".

So, I did. It came back as an AU-58. My partner said "I was afraid of that. With the census that low, they didn't want to affect the value of the one coin already there". The real "tell" is when you get an offer for your coin.

And sure enough.....
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 Posted 08/24/2020  11:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This was my worst one ever. I purchased this assuming it was graded correctly. How was this not detailed?

Edited by hfjacinto
08/24/2020 11:11 am
New Member
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11 Posts
 Posted 06/23/2021  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bgreene to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had my coins authenticated by a reputable dealer prior to 2 submissions at PCGS. Both submissions came back without variety designation and at very low grades for coins that came from uncirculated rolls. The coins I submitted were of far higher grade than the examples of the same coins on the PCGS website. I have been informed this is a well known scam by PCGS to increase their bottom line with resubmissions. I will never use PCGS again.

*** Edited by Staff to remove YELLING. All capital letters is the internet version of yelling. Please do not do it in titles or posts. ***
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 Posted 06/23/2021  4:21 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First of all, caps. Second, did you ask for variety and make sure the dealer did? Third, are you sure they were actually BU Rolls? And forth, and don't take this the wrong way, do you know how to grade? PCGS isn't a scam.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 06/24/2021  10:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@bgreene
It is not common to get "high money grades" on coins from uncirculated bank rolls because grades that make money are not that common.

As to PCGS and the other companies being a scam, it depends on how much "gray areas" that exists, in an awful lot of companies and marketing today (not just coins), it takes for an individual to call a company a scam.

PCGS is not, as GrapeCollects says, a provable scamming company like telemarketers can be that is out to take everyone for a ride.

Unfortunately a lot of people feel they have gotten taken by grading companies b/c they do not do the homework to understand the actual part these companies play. Since so many slabs are for sale online, people just assume PCGS, and other grading companies, is/are THE undeniable PROFESSIONALS concerning all aspects of coin collecting. And their marketing departments love this b/c it brings in tons of business.

PCGS is a company, looking to make a profit (as any other company) who GRADES coins. They do not automatically assign varieties, they do not automatically tell you what type of error a coin is. They grade.

Another thing which is said on the website (but who reads directions/instructions anyway - as all good marketing departments love in any business?) is that grading coins is not a science, it is an art.

In other words, there is absolutely no scientific standard applied to grading coins by coin grading companies. You can break a coin one out of a PCGS slab, send it back into PCGS, and never have a guarantee it will get the same grade again.

A former MS64 coin might come back as MS62 (on an uncommonly bad day the graders are having), MS63, MD64, MS65, MS66 (on a good day for you!). No science...no accountability...no verifying the grade by any factual means.


Now the major gray area...
The technology has been there (and was marketed by PCGS in the early 90s) to have a scientific standard, and PCGS even claimed it was more accurate than human grading as an advertising method to get people to their computer grading system. But the scientific approach was dropped with the companies saying since people (back then) did not trust computers, they went back to the less accurate human grading. And here we are...30 years later!

Nowadays everyone carries with them a more powerful computer (and scanner in some cases with facial recognition) than the antique 1990 computers. However, the "art" is kept.

Why? No solid facts are mentioned known. But we do know companies are out to make money. If a verifiable method of grading coins was implemented, then the resubmitting game in hopes of getting a better grade would go out the window. And resubmitting coins is a very profitable area of for these companies. It is likely in their best interest NOT to be based on fact.

There are other instances such as some pretty convincing data pointing to grading companies grading monster boxes of ASEs and probably just skimming 20% off the top to make into MS70s and the rest be put in lesser graded slabs.

There is no actual verifiable difference between an MS69 and MS70 anyway. But people pay more for the MS70, so it makes sense for a business to keep MS70 percentages below a certain rate to encourage better business for the company. How? SO many people are willing to gamble (and pay the company to slab) their ASE to get the "money grade."

Start examining MS70 ASE's for yourself. You will find it not difficult to find an obviously damaged one that should never have been an MS70 if the company-alleged three graders looked at it.

Scam? It depends on how much a person accepts gray areas as being a "legitimate part" of the business world. Its all around us.

Also please look at the PDF linked to in my signature. Here is legit proof the companies are very lacking in variety attribution...and some other claims. These problems have cost thousand$ of dollar$ (all linked int he article to the PCGS website for proof) to the unfortunate who put blind faith in these companies as being THE experts of anything and everything having to do with coins.

When a person understands all of the above, understand to buy the coin and not the slab, and understand the value of slab+label+coin can easily disappear if the plastic does, then slabbed coins coins can, and do, make an enjoyable quest for people to collect.

But just like everything else in life, a person who jumps in feet first and does not understand these companies for what they are can be very disappointed.

Hobbies are about FUN. If a person likes slabbed coins, then all the more power to them. This is the way they enjoy the hobby.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
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 Posted 06/28/2021  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, we do know why computerized technical grading fails.

Customers don't like it.

There are also technical difficulties. If you go back and read the compugrade patent, it was based on mapping a coin into 50-100 zones, calculating the number of marks & rubs in each zone, and mathematically combining that to create a grade. Each new type of coin or change within a coin would require a new map. Just imagine the complexity of the Washington quarters... 3 or 4 versions prior to 1999, 56 50SG, 56ATB, the new WAxDEL, and then 2022's notable women.

The complexity with a modern AI system is that you need a training set of sufficient completeness for the neural network. It has to contain multiple examples that everybody agrees with, for what 28 grades? And * and + grades.
-----Burton
47 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, OnLinw Coin Club
Owned by four cats and a wife of 37 years (joined 1983)
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 Posted 06/28/2021  9:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Actually, we do know why computerized technical grading fails.

Customers don't like it.


Don't or didn't? I may be mistaken, but I thought all these types of grading system were gone back in the 90s. If this is the case, then it makes sense that the companies said the systems were not accepted b/c people didn;t trust computers.

But nowadays, 30 years later, most people have in their pocket a computer much more capable than any computer of 30 years ago and few people don't trust computers even with their financial dealings.


Quote:
Each new type of coin or change within a coin would require a new map. Just imagine the complexity of the Washington quarters... 3 or 4 versions prior to 1999, 56 50SG, 56ATB, the new WAxDEL, and then 2022's notable women.

Also simple with today's machines and not a big deal with computer storage capacities.

In fact it could be a modern iPhone, taking 30,000 data points with IR instantaneously for facial recognition (and being able to recognize with changes such as glasses, mustaches, etc.) could be made to develop a handheld app. The tech may already be in hand, just not developed.


Quote:
The complexity with a modern AI system...

Already in development. Minstate.com has a system they are developing in which they took huge amounts of slabbed Morgans at each grade level and let the computer learn what humans label at each grade point. For awhile it was open for testing to the public and was doing a great job. I do not know what is the current status.

Personally I favor an absolute scientific system that can be verified such as the premise of the original computer systems. With modern technology as compared to the computers and systems from 30 years ago (antique tech literally), and how computers nowadays make scans and evaluations of parts down to levels never needed for coin evaluation, its certainly time for a legit change to science in these systems.
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 Posted 06/29/2021  06:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Don't or didn't? I may be mistaken, but I thought all these types of grading system were gone back in the 90s. If this is the case, then it makes sense that the companies said the systems were not accepted b/c people didn;t trust computers.

Also the complexity problem didn't exist yet when the computer grading was scrapped. At that time the computer grading system had only been set up for Morgan dollars and Saint Gaudens double eagles. But even back them I pointed out the problem they were going to have when they extended it back to the pre-steam press coinage where every die was different. They would need a new "map" for every obv and rev die used, and possibly die states of each die as well to allow for die cracks, chips, cuds, and clash marks so as to not confuse these things with "damage".
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 06/29/2021  08:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sure, you can get enough examples to train the popular coins. Even there, I suspect you will lack training materials for Morgans outside of MS and PO/Fr/Ag. But less popular coins?

I'm not saying it can't be done in the small - and you are certainly right that the computer power (and imaging system quality which is more important) have made huge strides in the past 5+ years.

Even purpose build hardware isn't as crazy as it was... I can envision a system of four cameras and a laser scanner. one white light, three R G B light and a silicon belt that moves the coin past the cameras. All using identical 65mm macro lenses on a 20MP+ body.

The ultimate problem is getting people to agree on your training set. Even today if you show three coins to three experts, you will get 5-10 grades.
-----Burton
47 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, OnLinw Coin Club
Owned by four cats and a wife of 37 years (joined 1983)
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