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This Is My Last Resort To ID This Piece Of Money(?!) - Please Help -

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 Posted 09/17/2020  04:14 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Based upon prior research I am assuming this item is technically money.

My apologies in advance for lack of any sort of provenance as I found it by accident between the pages of a coin collecting album. I do know that it had been in the same 2 by 2 and stored in the the same place for about three decades.

I have attempted off and on for over 6 months to ID the item and have asked every person around me.

Please help solve the mystery with Coin Community Forum awesomeness. It is time for all those brilliant numismatic minds to shine!







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 Posted 09/17/2020  09:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An interesting piece. I hope you find an answer soon.
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 Posted 09/17/2020  09:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I appreciate the kind words jbuck. They keep me motivated!
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 Posted 09/17/2020  09:53 am  Show Profile   Check BigSilver's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi,
Can you share the weight and diameter?
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 Posted 09/17/2020  10:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Might be some type of bronze piece that was cut up and used as a substitute for a fractional denomination.

There have been coin shortages throughout history.
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 Posted 09/17/2020  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great question. I am ballparking these numbers-

18mm diameter
2-3.5 grams weight

And, yes, westernsky you hit the nail on the head. Every time I've looked at it that thought jumps into my head. Looks like it was cut from a larger piece like a slice from a loaf.
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 Posted 09/17/2020  2:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pistareen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How much it weighs is the right question to ask. This appears to be a coin weight. Back in the day pan scales were sold in wooden boxes with sets of weights. Those used in finance might come with a set of weights of various sizes that resemble specific coins in circulation. Coin weights may be round or square, and would be filed down to equal the full weight of coins to be valued. Each weight may have punched numbers or design elements of the coins they validate. Back when foreign coins circulated in colonial times, a set of weights with elements of foreign coin design were needed to conduct banking and to determine counterfeits and clipping. Weights for Latin American coins might have crosses, lions and castles as do Latin American coins. To better identify this weight you could compare its weight and what you can make out of the design stamped into it with old foreign gold and silver coin designs and weights to see what matches. It would have been one of a matching set of similar design. See the book on Coin Weights to compare sets by country with this weight.
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 Posted 09/17/2020  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Check BigSilver's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BigSilver to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am ballparking these numbers

way off. A US cent is 19mm. Your object is more like 10-12mm.
Numista has a filter option by shape. If you haven't already, check there. There are a few items that have so little discernible details that may be similar to yours.
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 Posted 09/17/2020  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgfindring to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Based on the end pictures, it looks like possibly two wires running through it, which would make me suspect a crimped seal of some type. From a bag of money, ore, food, documents.
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 Posted 09/17/2020  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good eyes @jgfr. I agree that this might be a bale seal.
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 Posted 09/18/2020  06:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The letters are Arabic.
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 Posted 09/18/2020  09:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How much it weighs is the right question to ask. This appears to be a coin weight. Back in the day pan scales were sold in wooden boxes with sets of weights. Those used in finance might come with a set of weights of various sizes that resemble specific coins in circulation. Coin weights may be round or square, and would be filed down to equal the full weight of coins to be valued. Each weight may have punched numbers or design elements of the coins they validate. Back when foreign coins circulated in colonial times, a set of weights with elements of foreign coin design were needed to conduct banking and to determine counterfeits and clipping. Weights for Latin American coins might have crosses, lions and castles as do Latin American coins. To better identify this weight you could compare its weight and what you can make out of the design stamped into it with old foreign gold and silver coin designs and weights to see what matches. It would have been one of a matching set of similar design. See the book on Coin Weights to compare sets by country with this weight.


Excellent suggestion and the subject itself is fascinating.

I highly recommend reading Daniel Frank Sedwick's "Introduction to Regulated Coinage of North America and The West Indies In The 1700s".

https://www.sedwickcoins.com/ta23/i...ted_gold.pdf

In regards to my specific scenario my best option is to weight the piece on a digital scale. I do not have one of these scales at home but when I visit my LCS tomorrow I will use theirs.
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 Posted 09/18/2020  09:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
way off. A US cent is 19mm. Your object is more like 10-12mm.
Numista has a filter option by shape. If you haven't already, check there. There are a few items that have so little discernible details that may be similar to yours.


My measurement was inaccurate. You are exactly correct BigSilver that it is about 12mm.

The best way to describe the shape of this piece is octagonal.

I have found a few references on foreign language numismatic websites to rectangular/ingot octagonal coinage that also happen to almost exactly similar in size and weight of this piece.

One reference placed these during a period about 500 years ago, and the other reference to a period about 1500-2000 years ago. The areas of circulation were in the "Eastern World" as compared to the "Western World."

Lastly, at least one reference stated they were made of lead. Based on my size and weight estimates lead could be feasible.
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 Posted 09/18/2020  10:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The letters are Arabic.


Thank you. Is it possible for you to be more specific? Which letters, number of letters, or anything else that would help?


Quote:
Good eyes @jgfr. I agree that this might be a bale seal.


A bale seal, and not a bag seal, does make some sense. Where as a bag seals would be churned out by the 1000s and would be identical bale seals were were not.

Sugar for example was bagged in a machine that churned out thousands of bags an hour ad fastened them together with an identical seal such as "Brown & Sweet Sugar" bag seals.

A bale seal however was used specifically to fasten together huge bales of raw vegetable material such as hemp and flax plants. These seals were applied one at a time by a port inspector for example and gave unique information.

Long story short... whereas identical bag seals were produced in the 1000s... the bale seals/flax seals were an individual item... actually touched and applied by an individual.


Quote:
Based on the end pictures, it looks like possibly two wires running through it, which would make me suspect a crimped seal of some type. From a bag of money, ore, food, documents.


NOTE: This is currently an ongoing and unanswered topic amongst archeologists, academics, historians, etc. concerning these items.

Only a VERY small proportion of these seals have holes through them and it is a mystery how, or even if, they were attached to the bales. There is a strong possibility that these were customs tax seals for individual towns.

Lots of these seals have parts missing and this may be where the hole was located. Fortunately the piece I have appears to have the holes.


In summary and in addition, there's been tens of thousands of lead trading tokens/counters, often designed to be physically divisible, but none known would have the holes.



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 Posted 09/18/2020  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unfortunately, the forum does not recognize Arabic characters and nothing jumps out immediately as a name or other inscription. I tend to think it's a coin. Some Indian coppers are struck on similar fabric, chiseled from a bronze bar like a Tootsie Roll candy. Secondarily, I would look at locations around the Arabian Sea.
Edited by Kushanshah
09/18/2020 7:38 pm
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 Posted 09/18/2020  8:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The best way to describe the shape of this piece is octagonal.

I wouldn't not call that octagonal.
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