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Over Zealous TPG Grading As 'Cleaned'

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 310Next Topic  
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 Posted 05/15/2021  10:22 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add RollinCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Curious of others thoughts on gradings as 'cleaned' with details.

New to hobby -- been collecting for 2-3 years and just submitted 40-50 coins to NGC. Was quite surprised to have about half of them come back as 'cleaned'

Wondered if NCG was ever considered to be perhaps overly conservative in this regard? Do people ever resubmit to other TPG with different results?
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 Posted 05/15/2021  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grading is subjective, so there's always some variability. You can resubmit, but it's generally only a good idea if you have a very valuable coin that you expect will gain more value than the cost of regrading.
That said, if they're calling half your coins cleaned, they likely are. Could you post pictures of a few?
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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RollinCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry if this is bombarding... these are some of the possibly more valuable coins that came back cleaned...













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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RollinCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Guess I'm learning that when the borders are significantly darker... this is an 'obvious' sign of cleaning? I do see that on a at least 1/3 of the above
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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with NGC on all of those coins, all were cleaned.

(Hell must be freezing over, I agree with NGC on multiple coins)
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rothery to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
indeed - They look pretty suspect and worthy of the "Details" grade. Id'e say learn "Shiny" - ain't MS!
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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Guess I'm learning that when the borders are significantly darker... this is an 'obvious' sign of cleaning?


Not necessarily. Coins can get toning like that from albums. Harsh cleaning generally removes any toning, but it may come back later.
One big red flag that's especially obvious on some of your Morgans is that they're shiny but don't have any original luster. Most uncirculated coins should have "cartwheel" luster; try to look at some genuinely uncirculated examples and observe them in-hand if possible. If a coin is very shiny but not uncirculated, the surface has probably been altered.
You should also keep an eye out for lots of fine scratches that are plentiful in the fields and on high points but don't show up in recesses and immediately around devices.

I think NGC was fair with these coins. I recommend you hang around here, look at enough cleaned and problem-free coins to develop an eye for their nuances, and check with us if you're unsure before making a big purchase.
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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RollinCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks GrapeCollects -- can I ask (to learn) what distinguishing marks helped you make that assessment?

I do now see the darker border on some-

Is there something to look for on the stars?

Im struggling to see a tell tale on 1) 1875-p 20c; 2) 1932-s 25c; 3) 1884-s Morgan --though the stars at 4-6oclock look funny; 4) 1875-s Trade; 5) 1932-D 25c, 6) 1860-s 50c
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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:42 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Most of those pieces are cleaned and several are harshly cleaned. There might be one or two in there with a light cleaning that might get a pass on resubmittal but I wouldn't try it (not with my money anyway).

You will learn to spot cleaned coins with time and practice. Use this as a learning experience.

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 Posted 05/15/2021  11:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RollinCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Numisma!!! Thats a huge help; really appreciate it
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 Posted 05/16/2021  12:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The one that looks the least cleaned to me is the 1878 Trade dollar, I'm actually fairly surprised it didn't straight grade. Unless the pics are hiding something
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 Posted 05/16/2021  12:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree they all look cleaned to some degree. The only one that might get a pass (without seeing the reverse) is the first Lafayette dollar. I agree with @Numisma that the main telltale sign is the lack of mint luster in the AU and uncirculated coins. You should try to examine as many problem-free, graded mint state coins as possible to get a feel for what original mint luster looks like. I would suggest you hold off on buying more raw coins until you get a good sense of cleaned vs original surfaces.
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 Posted 05/16/2021  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add noahlh to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing I'll say is don't let this dissuade you from enjoying the hobby! As others have said, this is a great learning experience. I've been playing with coins on and off (mostly off ;) for 30+ years and you just kind of develop an eye for these things. As Justice Potter Stewart said in his famous ruling on obscenity -- "I know it when I see it."

To my rusty eyes, the Morgans are all super obviously cleaned - they just have "that" look. The only one I'd probably miss is your second Lafayette, although that probably didn't get the full workup that the Morgans did (you can see the shine/hairlines on the cheeks and forehead).

Thanks for sharing - this actually helps me too! I'm trying to retrain my eyes and as many examples as possible with confirmed grades, Details or not, are helpful.
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 Posted 05/16/2021  12:50 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Thanks GrapeCollects -- can I ask (to learn) what distinguishing marks helped you make that assessment?


No problem (prepare for an essay).

Coin #1: 1875 20c

The coin, as NGC indicated, retains an XF amount of detail, however the coin appears to display very shiny surfaces, an attempt to imitate natural mint luster. The replicated "luster" is very matte and flat with, as indicated by above posters, no cartwheel to it. Also, an XF coin, generally speaking, will have little to no mint luster remaining, that should be a red flag on its own going forward. In addition, a collection of hairlines left by an abrasive cleaning can be seen in the right obverse field by the cap.

Coin #2: Lafayette Dollar

The cleaning in not as harsh as the previous coin, and generally has good eye appeal, however, from around K3 in the obverse field to K6 hairlines going N->S can be seen. While it is quite minor, it appears that whoever cleaned the coin may have been attempting to remove a stain or spot.

Coin #3: 1904-S Morgan

This coin, as designated by NGC, is high AU in terms of the remaining detail, however, as I previously described in the first coin, the luster is unnatural, shows no cartwheel, and is matte and flat. While generally some hairlines are present on AU quality coins as many Choice AU coins are "mishandled Uncs" the pattern of hairlines is much too consistent in their grouping and quantity to be natural.

Coin #4: 1932-S Washington quarter

Much similar to my speculation regarding the Lafayette Dollar, the cleaning on this coin was likely with the intent to remove spotting. The color on this coin is inconsistent and while residual mint luster is visible and present, largely the luster seems flat and unnatural, though to a significantly less degree than some of the previous coins. Also, while I cannot be sure without seeing the coin in hand, there appear to be hairlines from K2 to K4 heading W->E in the right obverse field.

Coin #5: 1886 Morgan dollar

See comments on Coin #3. I will say, the cleaning is SIGNIFIGANTLY, more minor on this coin. I'd also state I think that the coin may actually be an UNC Details coin rather than AU.

Coin #6: 1884 Morgan dollar

See Coin #3. I'd also add a scratched comment for the scratch running from the rim to hair by the 'U' of 'PLURIBUS'.

Coin #7: 1875-S Trade

Significant hairlines cover the obverse and what appears to be a large scratch are significant issues. In addition, significant staining borderlines environmental damage.

Coin #8: 1878 Trade

See coin #3 generally speaking. Surfaces are too bright for the grade.

Coin #9: 1875-S 20c

Harshly cleaned. Coin is extremely bright with matte and unnatural surfaces.

Coin #10: Lafayette Dollar

See coin #2. Generally the same, but to a significantly more severe degree.

Coin #11: 1932-S 25c

Coin is a technical XF with extensive hairlines and unnaturally bright and unnatural surfaces. Harshly cleaned with an abrasive.

Coin #12: 1884-S Morgan

See coin #3

Coin #13: 1860-S 50c

Harshly cleaned AU-50/3. Extensive hairlines are visible in the right obverse field that cross over the devices and into the left obverse fields.

My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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United States
5940 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2021  01:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Always remember that rare/scarce RAW coins are usually not already slabbed because they have a problem(s) that the seller knows will prevent them from straight grading.

Until you learn to differentiate between "cleaned" / "uncleaned" and "problem" / "problem-free" RAW coins I'd avoid making uninformed purchases.

Stick to mainstream slabs as you learn the trade. Once you become knowledgeable you'll then be able to test the raw coin market again!

Good luck!
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