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Russia 1913 Rouble XRF Silver Content Too High? Fake Or Real?

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Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  3:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi I recently purchased a 1913 Russian Rouble Romanov 300th anniversary and while I liked the look of the coin the plethora of fakes online made me what to weigh and test the metal. We weighed the coin when purchased and it was almost dead on. But then I took it to a higher end xrf to see what the results were Ag 95.66 and Cu 4.34. Krause lists this at a .900 silver so my big question is whether this could be accounted for because of the period refining practises or does it point towards a fake? I can upload coin pictures and xrf results! Thanks for any input!
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United States
1238 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It could be one of the Chinese made imitations.
A number of replicas or imitations of many coins are made with good silver.
Would not surprise me if they may not be exactly .900
As a guess they may be a bit high or a bit low.
Not saying foul- but $20 worth of silver could be used to make such a coin to fool collectors.
The maker would have a good profit if someone bought one for a hundred or a couple hundred dollars.
Maybe or maybe not in this case- just thinking out loud.
You can go online and find this coin that was not made as genuine or made in the original mint, and it is claimed to be silver.
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Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert yes that's why I'm hoping other collectors have done a metal analysis on their Roubles as well-so many are low mintage years and having a pool of information regarding whether the metal was right on .900 or off a bit for the period would be a great asset. As for my coin I'll throw up photos later tonight and I am able to return it in full to a local dealer.
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Australia
19252 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Without a picture my answer cannot be much more that a guess:
Pressure die cast fake, base metal core, silver plated.

A probable alloy suitable die casting could/would be copper tin lead and perhaps some antinomy for hardening. Such an alloy has a with paste range suitable for die casting, and the density and color of the alloy can also be controlled.
A planchet set up in this way could also be suitable striking a few hundred coins with relatively soft dies, before being worn out.

Over time, some silver and copper atoms exchange places at the plating interface, which could explain the presence of copper in the XRF test. Copper can also be explained by adding a small amount of copper to a silver plating alloy.

Subject coin may still have a nice ping tone, but pitch can be tested against a known genuine coin.

A good book on this subject:
'Numismatic Forgery' by Charles M Larson.
Endorsed by Ken Bressett, past president of ANA for essential reading.
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Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

New Member
Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  6:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Sel sorry still new to this hopefully you see this reply-the xrf machine I had it tested on is not the run of the mill home type but a professional grade machine that does a deeper penetration with detailed compositions. I've done other coins on it in the past and know it to be accurate. So I do know that the coin is .950 vs the .900 in Krause. I was hoping either other collectors had done the same test on theirs and could share the results or if someone was aware of a 5% spread on silver content could be ‚correct for the period'? Many thanks
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Canada
4321 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  7:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silver content was very important, and the Russian empire was quite capable of making coins of fairly exact % of silver. Making it too high on a consistent basis would have been very unprofitable and maybe a a crime in those days.
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Sweden
858 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Typical tolerance for the fineness (silver content) of contemporary other European silver coins was around 0.3 %, so a difference of 5 % is out of the question.
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United States
1238 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  7:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another case, where if I had it, I'd subject it to a few tests and then know just what to reply.
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Australia
3393 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would like more photos like photos of the reverse and the edge.

At the moment, there doesn't seem to be much information.

My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries

My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month.
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Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

New Member
Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  9:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

New Member
Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

New Member
Canada
19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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19 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2021  9:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Franceandcolonie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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