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2020-W Marsh Billings Possible DDR?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 383Next Topic  
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 Posted 11/21/2021  11:10 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Decaf94drew to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Soooo was having a good ol time taking pics of a W mint weir farm I was going to sell when I noticed it had DDD and MD thought it was kinda neat so I started rechecking all my west points. Got to looking at both my marsh billings and realized they had something extra. This one happened to have a nice little collar clash on the obverse,however upon checking both coins reverses against the US mints pics I realized the coins I'm posting about definitely look differe different from what they have. Both examples I own have the exact same thing in the exact same place. The area in question is raised between the tree branches in basically the center of the reverse. Is this a die chip? Is this actual doubling?



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21969 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2021  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@decaf, unless I am mis-reading your pics, there seems to be metal "smushed" up around a central divot. That looks like damage to me.
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 Posted 11/21/2021  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well the coin is a keeper with the "W" mintmark on it. So don't spend it, keep it safe.
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 Posted 11/21/2021  1:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think it is doubling, maybe a die chip, but the anomaly looks too 'soft' or rounded. not too sure what that is, but one thing is for sure, it is something that shouldn't be there.
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 Posted 11/21/2021  2:36 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There's something going on with the Marsh Billings quarters that I haven't been able to figure out yet. A lot of the ones I've seen (Philly mint) have incuse marks in that exact location. The shape of the marks aren't identical from coin-to-coin but they all seem to match the shape of some part of the branches.

I haven't figured out what they are yet but I've been saving the ones I've seen.
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152 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2021  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Decaf94drew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
**Please read through entirely**

Brought both coins with me to work last night to re study and label the depth of the areas in the photo to make it easier to visualize. every area described is something I can visually see clearly. it was a pain in the ..... however one headache and 13 hrs later this is the result.-
I've seen so many rim ding marks and damage along with DDD and MD lately I can tell you this is none of those. Its definitely not a die crack or a chip the area is too smooth and besides this does indeed have weak details of some kind of design feature. It does not look like a clash to me I just don't see how clashing would line up here, I'd expect a different pattern in the area (more along the lines of lower ear shape/hair) right here if it was. So that kinda puts me at only a few options.

Option 1. This is how the reverse should look and the mint did a horrible job giving reference photos

Option 2. This is some kind of die dent that raises devices in one spot on the die creating a low spot on the coin surrounded by higher relief that occurs around the same place on the middle of the coin on Philly and Westpoint examples for sure but not Denver or San Francisco*buisness or proof* examples (according to PCGS photos of both and my few Denver mint examples in hand)

Option 3. There are non finished proof reverses in use. My phone doesn't show the mints photos the greatest however based off the crappy pictures I can see it does look like the unc reverse COULD have something extra there while the proof reverses wouldnt.(kinda ties into idea 1. They didn't provide correct reference photos)

My take on it is option 4. Here are the photos of the depths of the design.


4. A mix of things, poor quality control, and a detailed sapling design in the center of the coin sounds like the perfect storm for this scenario :they start to create the die, the die touches an area of the hub that would create an incuse area on a raised portion of design on the coin. The process gets stopped at the beginning somehow they check everything and for some reason they don't pull the die, They disturb its placement and continue..the die now has a new design profile left on a tiny tiny Itty bitty top area somewhere

(can't fully decide if on the very tip or a flat surface up top the conical shape, keep going back and fourth in my mind but leaning towards the later. Number 1 just seems to drastic for the mint to let go and I would think there would be a whole heck of a lot more design here).


The die which has now been disturbed finishes being made while leaving the new design details in the lowest fields of the coin instead of back on raised design where it belongs.


The center of the design is on the righthand second branch from the bottom of the sapling this would be about the correct area for any doubling to be occurring as well. So what if and I mean big if.. one of the master dies was doubled and the wierd occurances happening in that spot are other things happening from the working hubs and or dies striking each other from those sets.. what if later in the hubbing process one of the hubs or dies is stopped and started again but not as drastically as the first time. That combined with the original situation would surely make everything much more difficult to properly identify especially if it's stretching and distorting an already misplaced design feature; I can see this becoming a total nightmare to place its original location.
I know dont understand the entirety of the minting process but I have an ok idea so if any of what I think couldve happened just isn't right or possible please go easy on me and teach me, I already feel like a fool out on a limb here lol I would like to understand and be involved in an informed conversation. Lastly excuse the lack of proper scale in my drawings, they are only used to illustrate what I'm trying to convey and what I think. Thank you any response is beyond appreciated!
Edited by Decaf94drew
11/22/2021 3:57 pm
Valued Member
United States
152 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2021  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Decaf94drew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tanman2001 so my question is do all your Philly ones have some anomaly in that area or do you have examples with perfectly flat clean fields there that info would be most helpful
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 Posted 11/22/2021  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
do all your Philly ones have some anomaly in that area or do you have examples with perfectly flat clean fields


Yes I've seen many without these marks. Perfectly clean.

My thoughts on your options:

Option 1. They shouldn't vary then. If a mistake was made on the master hub, it would not only always show as an identical mark, but it also would show on every coin.

Option 2. Die dent is a possibility. I'm not seeing this raised element on my examples though. Also some of the examples I've seen undoubtedly match the shape of the branches, so a random die dent doesn't seem like a perfect explanation.

Option 3. No a lot of Philly reverses don't have the marks either as I said before.

Option 4. What you initially describe is just a doubled die, which should show as a raised element on the coin which isn't what I'm seeing. But the doubled master die things you mentioned is completely different, and like option 1 that should show identical marks on all the derivative dies.

My initial thought of what these were struck through dropped fillings. Just some bits of grease and debris got compressed into the microscopic pines of the sapling and later fell out getting struck into the coin. Although I don't think this could happen so often, feels like a lot of things have to go right for this to be the case. You just don't see dropped fillings too often.

Here's the two I have in hand. I have a couple really nice examples back at home, it would be a minute until I can get to them.




And as a comparison, here's a doubled die I found:

Edited by Tanman2001
11/22/2021 5:57 pm
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United States
152 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2021  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Decaf94drew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Photos with phone and loupe that spot is the one spot I can personally say looks like doubling from my experience looking at the ddrs I have found previously this has the same appearance type



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United States
152 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2021  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Decaf94drew to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another area of interest. Not all westpoints have this... so could this actually be doubling?

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