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1943-S Over 2 Lincoln Cent (Fs-101 DDO) Stage B (Emds)?

 
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 Posted 05/28/2022  2:48 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Given the inevitable frenzy that will start with redesignation of FS-101 as an overdate DDO, I thought it might be fun to post what I think is one of them. I'm also literally waiting for paint to dry right now, so why not.

The mm location looks right, The date shows clear doubling, and I'm not aware of any other 1943-S with a "9" doubled that heavily.

On the reverse, I don't see a die crack from the center bottom of the first "U" in PLURIBUS to the top center of the "O" in ONE. If not, that would make it reverse die #1. I think I can see a very weak die crack from the last right kernel on the right wheat stalk nearly straight south to the rim, so that could suggest Stage B. I don't see any Stage C or D markers.

Apologies for way too many photos. I hope these are useful. If not, I'll shut up and go back to painting. (My wife would be very glad, on both counts!)

Full obverse and reverse mug shots:



Here are the obverse doubling details for this coin.







And the Stage identifiers:




I know these are pretty common. I've seen a few of them in the wild before, but I'm not 100% on this one.

Thoughts? Thanks!
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 Posted 05/28/2022  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just not seeing this as a legit over date, the dates have more involvement than assumed:

Newer information revealed. See below.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
05/29/2022 2:37 pm
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 Posted 05/28/2022  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am assuming this is a thought among others as well, I am not that well versed. I see in the late die stages, on VV what you may be referring too but definitely not your earlier stage. That being said, I know that sometimes varieties show better in later stages but do not think this would be one of those cases. I am also not sure how many later die stages that show this ghost/shadow on the date have been found. That being said, I would think, if no others, maybe something with the individual plate coin, the steelies were horrible about having issues or if there are several out there, just a late die stage with issues, deterioration or die chips?

Educate me, I'm always up for new to me stuff.
-makecents-
Edited by -makecents-
05/28/2022 10:40 pm
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 Posted 05/29/2022  08:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I totally misunderstood your post, I thought you were trying to convince that yours was an overdate. I would concur with yours being the DDO-001 and with the first reverse. So the powers that be have already decided to change to an overdate DDO? I just have a hard time seeing that.
-makecents-
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 Posted 05/29/2022  09:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's the Coin World story on the redesignation of DDO-001 (FS-101) as a DDO overdate by Bill Fivaz, John Wexler and Dr. James Wiles.


EDIT: In terms of the overlay, remember that this is a Class V, and the pivot point is very near the rim, immediately below the "L" of LIBERTY. The spread is significant in a vertical line from the date. Since it is counterclockwise, the "2" will be aligned differently than a true overlay. The VEDS coins shown for Stage A on VV and Wexler show the alignment of the "2" relative to the "3" far better than my circulated example.
Edited by fortcollins
05/29/2022 10:02 am
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 Posted 05/29/2022  10:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Woah! Didn't expect to see an evaluation this big when I woke up today. The overlays and images on Coin World are pretty convincing..

I'm really wondering how this is going to affect the market for this variety. Will it become a major variety? RedBook listed? PCGS/NGC recognized as a major variety? If so, I'm guessing the price will be rising pretty quickly on this die so collectors can be up to date on their sets.

I also believe this is now the only Lincoln Cent overdate and the latest Cent overdate as the 1888/7 was the latest before this discovery.

-CH27
Collector of U.S. Coins, Varieties, and Colonial Coinage
Edited by CoinHunter27
05/29/2022 10:31 am
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 Posted 05/29/2022  10:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the link. Well, who am I to argue with that many experts.
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 Posted 05/29/2022  10:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a pretty easy coin to spot in the wild.
The mint mark is centered, upright, and complete. That knocks out the slanted, low, far left, or right mint marks. A horizontal line from the tail of the "9" to the bottom of the "3" runs through the upper loop of the "S". So does the vertical line from the left edge of the "4" south.
The doubling on the "9" is clear with a 5x or 10x loupe in any die state.

There are two reverse dies matched with the obverse. Stages A (EDS) and B (EMDS) are matched with the first reverse die. Stages C (MDS) and later are matched with the second reverse die. The first die wasn't very worn when it was replaced. The second die marker is the weak vertical die crack from the first "U" of PLURIBUS to the "O" of ONE.

It isn't rare. This obverse die had a pretty long life. I found one on a reprocessed cent, so they can be spotted even after reprocessing. It's probably as common as the 1943-P over 2 Jefferson DDO.

I have to agree here. This is an overdate DDO.
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 Posted 05/29/2022  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting change. Thanks for the info!
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 Posted 05/29/2022  3:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Other areas noticed on this over date. The designs were not exact and left doubling on other areas besides the date.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 05/30/2022  2:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm really wondering how this is going to affect the market for this variety. Will it become a major variety? RedBook listed? PCGS/NGC recognized as a major variety? If so, I'm guessing the price will be rising pretty quickly on this die so collectors can be up to date on their sets.


With the names behind the ID, this seems like a lock for Red Book and TPG recognition of the new designation. I'm not sure on the pricing, It may bounce around for a while, but this is not a rare variety. This obverse die had a long life. I could well be wrong here, but I think it may eventually settle in somewhere near the 1942-P 3/2 Jefferson pricing, with one modification. There are a lot more Lincoln collectors than Jefferson collectors, so demand may be higher.


Quote:
I also believe this is now the only Lincoln Cent overdate and the latest Cent overdate as the 1888/7 was the latest before this discovery.


Yes. Unless I missed one somewhere, I think it maintains the record that all 20th Century DDO overdates except one (the 1909/8 Double Eagle) occurred during wartime. This doesn't seem accidental. It seems like an intentional decision to avoid waste.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  7:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NGC now lists this as "1943/1942 S FS-101" in its census.
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 Posted 06/03/2022  01:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cujohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Man now I gotta go over my 43-Ss again.
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 Posted 06/03/2022  08:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stoneman227 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the coin that I posted on Facebook and that mr.Elliott spotted and started his campain to get it recognized as a 1943/42. He considers this the Discovery coin and though it traveled through a few chanels , I'm happy to say he now ownes it.






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 Posted 06/03/2022  12:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What stands out when looking at that image to me is the die state. Your coin is an EDS. The best coins to see what was one the die from the start. If comparing from the VLDS examples, we see what the dies became with die wear. But on the EDS dies we see the start of that dies life. (My favorites are the EDS, because they are pure examples. Not tainted with die events that happened later. So seeing the die state proves that this is was the real deal started out as.

CoopHome: Why are The EDS (Early-Die-State) coins more interesting than the VLDS (Very-Late-Die-State) die state coins? How can they uncolver that really happened when the die was created? Read this whole thread to understand why this discussion helped change ideas of the past.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 06/04/2022  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not surprisingly, eBay is now full of listings of coins claiming to be the overdate DDO. Most of the listings are bogus.

Here is a marked photo showing the mm location of the 1943/2-S Overdate DDO (FS-101):


There are at least seven 1943-S cents with mint marks fairly close to the FS-101.
Two have mint marks that are a too low. The line from the tail of the "9" to the bottom of the "3" runs through the extreme top of the upper loop of the "S". The correct location is shown above.
Two have mint marks tilted to the right. The FS-101's mm is vertical. On the tilted mm coins, the vertical line from the west side of the "4" runs through the left side of the top curl, rather than through the loop.
One has a mm that is quite a bit too high. The line from the tail of the "9" to the bottom of the "3" runs through the middle curve of the "S" (and actually barely into the bottom loop) rather than through the top loop.
One has a mm with a plugged lower loop. This mm is slightly west of the correct mm, but the plugged lower loop is a dead giveaway that it is the wrong die.
One has a deceptively close mm, but the mm is much weaker and the coin has a very weak ("ghost") "4" in the date.

The FS-101 in all die states has (1) a strong, clear mm located as shown, (2) a strong "4" in the date, and (3) plainly evident doubling of the "9" in the date.
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