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Questions On Shill Bidding An Ebay Coin

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 Posted 06/02/2022  09:13 am Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I was watching this coin and bowed out after the bidding went above my value level of around $40.00

https://www.ebay.com/itm/384909923564

It ended up selling for $48.00 after 17 bids to buyer 2***5 I note they bid twice in the last hour and only their first bid increased it to the winning bid, meaning they had another bid laying in wait still unseen. They have a bid history of 100% with this buyer only. (I'm guessing this is a shill account the seller has to cover themselves).

The next day in my email I get the exact coin up for sale this time at a BIN for $79.95 by the same seller.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/38492629516

So in less than 12 hours of it selling to a supposed bidder it is relisted by the same seller at almost double the selling price. No wonder I think this seller is breaking all kinds of eBay rules of shill bidding, deceptive listings, and some of his feedback I can see also make similar claims. Yet they have no revised feedback and more negatives than show up in the feedback profile.

What are your opinions? Shill bidding by the seller?

Coin is nothing special a cleaned EF/AU 1864 LM Two Cent Piece and not a rare or tough die variety, just slightly better than one I already own. Looks to probably/likely have some rim bumps as well, reason I didn't pursue it over $40.00

If the coin had spent a few days or likely a week before being relisted I wouldn't be as concerned, that could be a sign of a non-paying bidder, but less than 12 hours to me is a red flag.

No way would I ever considering bidding on this sellers items ever (not that I did bid) price went over my trigger point before the auction ended. They seem to be averaging a high sale number as well with 1000+ feedback and in business only 1 year so far.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2˘ variety collector.

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 Posted 06/02/2022  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think you've assessed the situation correctly.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  09:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bobbyyyyyy
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
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 Posted 06/02/2022  09:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Bobbyyyyyy


Extremely difficult for ebay to prove, let alone me.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  10:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The re-listed item appears to be gone.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  11:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Definitely shill. Here is another example of another shill that won an auction yesterday and the exact coin is listed BIN today.
completed auction - https://www.ebay.com/itm/384909897866

New BIN listing - https://www.ebay.com/itm/384908162741

I'm willing to bet there are many more as the shills do not show up in the seller's feedback.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  1:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a consolation, the seller has to pay all of ebay's seller fees on the coin he or she rebought so they start again about 10% in the hole. I believe that if a coin is about to sell too low for one's taste, you should be able to competitively bid up to the value that you think it's worth - and pay all the fees. That is a little different from shill bidding which is taking advantage of nutty buyers willing to pay too much without any intention of buying the coin. I think this is the former case which I am ok with. Others may differ in this opinion.

Not surprised that ebay allows this since they are in it to make money. What do they care? They're making money.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  2:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They do care, it's just very hard to detect/prove.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TimNH to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
They do care, it's just very hard to detect/prove.


In this case the bidder has 57 bids, ALL with the same seller. Seems that wouldn't be a hard thing to detect. Although I guess it could be a customer who just really-really loves that seller.

https://www.ebay.com/bmgt/ViewBidde...319780962025

(well nuts, the link gets changed when I post it here, but yeah, 57 bids all with that same seller)
Edited by TimNH
06/02/2022 3:08 pm
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 Posted 06/02/2022  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the seller has to pay all of ebay's seller fees on the coin he or she rebought so they start again about 10% in the hole


That's not true if the shill buyer requests an order cancellation and the seller goes ahead and cancels the transaction. Then the seller can just relist without penalty.

I agree this is almost certainly shill bidding. The buyer had bid on a couple dozen items over the past month, only on auctions from this particular seller. He's not very good at hiding his misconduct.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  3:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In this case the bidder has 57 bids, ALL with the same seller. Seems that wouldn't be a hard thing to detect


When we were selling a lot on ebay and going to shows, we gave out cards to people that liked us but hated ebay. Many of these people bought from us because they met us and their accounts would look exactly like this. They only bought from us.

My point is, I have no idea if this is shill bidding and neither do you, it may be likely, but it's impossible to prove from the outside.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
When we were selling a lot on ebay and going to shows, we gave out cards to people that liked us but hated ebay. Many of these people bought from us because they met us and their accounts would look exactly like this. They only bought from us.
My point is, I have no idea if this is shill bidding and neither do you, it may be likely, but it's impossible to prove from the outside.


I agree with what you are saying, but if the same buyer continues to win auctions from the same seller without paying. How many auctions wins without paying does it take to raise a red flag? If a real buyer did that to me twice, I would block the buyer from biding on my auctions.
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 Posted 06/02/2022  11:10 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My point is, I have no idea if this is shill bidding and neither do you, it may be likely, but it's impossible to prove from the outside.


Bobby I think the main thing here is the coin getting relisted less than 12 hours after it sells "supposedly" Now that's too fast if it's a non paying bidder, and kind of doubtful the bidder would try to cancel a sale they placed multiple bids on that didn't even get used. Hard to claim they bid on accident, or a wrong item.

Clear case of Shill Bidding which I find eBay ignores on almost any seller with multiple sales or constant volume of auctions going on. They used to care, I remember reading about the algorithm they built to detect this in an old Wired magazine article like 2005 time frame. There is no way they don't know this is happening with this bidder and seller combo.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2˘ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 06/03/2022  12:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's not true if the shill buyer requests an order cancellation and the seller goes ahead and cancels the transaction. Then the seller can just relist without penalty.

I didn't know this was a thing. Learned something new today. Thanks!
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My coin e-commerce website:https://nummumcoins.com - Help me improve my coin e-commerce website: http://goccf.com/t/424872
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