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1853 California $1 Octagonal Fractiona Gold Thoughts

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 Posted 03/29/2023  2:27 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Roma2021 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

An online seller has this coin listed. I have requested additional photos but I am curious what everyone thinks before I proceed.

Thank you!








Edited by Roma2021
03/29/2023 2:34 pm
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 Posted 03/29/2023  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like an authentic BG-530 or BG-531, albeit holed

Still collectible (as a $1) but the hole on an already tiny gold coin does greatly diminish the value to Cal Fractional Gold collectors.

Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 03/29/2023  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree, looks genuine but damaged. Not sure what the value would be for this one.
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Italy
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 Posted 03/29/2023  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
He has it priced at 150 euro; about double melt. I don't know. I need to think about it.

Thank you both for your quick reply!

Weight is 1.14

And it is 18 mm.
Edited by Roma2021
03/29/2023 3:12 pm
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 Posted 03/29/2023  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticsFTW to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a hard pass for me, nothing to think about.
You realize when you know how to think, it empowers you far beyond those who know only what to think.

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Italy
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 Posted 03/29/2023  3:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
#numismatics the only attraction for me is finding u.s. coins in Rome. Not much more. I think I'd be a lot better on this coin of it were priced close to melt.
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 Posted 03/29/2023  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Roma, buy it if you can get him down to spot + 10% or so. I've seen similar ones - holed or ex-jewelry damaged - sell for crazy numbers here.
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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 Posted 03/29/2023  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing to keep in mind is that spot for US gold is based on standard US gold coin fineness.

The fineness of fractional California gold rarely meets or exceeds that standard. Some of the later issues struggle to assay above 8 kt (aka "333" gold, because gold is 33.3% of the alloy) or even less than that.

Because of the extreme difficulty in quantifying the gold weight of these issues without XRF, they are usually valued only as numismatic items, and do not carry a standard "spot" or "bullion" value.

This is a scarcer variety (either variety is R4); that being said, a damaged (scraped, but not holed) example sold for $225 in 2020, but a PCGS Uncirculated Details/Cleaned example of the same coin sold for $336 at Stacks Bowers in May 2019.

Some of the very rare varieties from the 1870s (R7-R8+) bring mid four figures or more, even when holed: one such holed coin sold for $6k in 2020, but also it's one of only 12 known to exist. The round California Gold dollars are also very collectible and often carry price tags to match.

There is some ongoing debate as to whether or not some of the 1850s-dated octagonal gold $0.25, $0.50, and $1.00 issues were actually issued during that era, or were struck years later and backdated to the 1850s.

I'd put the full retail value around $125-$150 as is. AU details, cleaned/holed. Mostly because demand for the dollar issues is stronger than demand for the smaller 25 cent/50 cent pieces.

FYI -- if you ever run across any examples without an explicit denomination (cents or dollars) on them, they are not authentic. They may be made out of real gold, sometimes high-quality gold at that, but they are replicas or tourist/souvenir/jewelry items.
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
03/29/2023 4:57 pm
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Italy
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 Posted 03/29/2023  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ Hondo and paralyse, that gives me a nice point/counter point to consider!

I may make an offer and see what he says ... Ebay comps similar around $200 with bo accepted on one.
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 Posted 03/29/2023  5:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@paralyse states the case well. Personally, I don't like it even at 10% over melt.
Edited by Coinfrog
03/29/2023 5:47 pm
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 Posted 03/30/2023  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not a rare coin per se but, it is scarce. The hole has history and there are collectors for holed coins. PCGS is a good reference for this coin. Personally, I would buy it but, that's just my desire for historical and scarce coins.
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 Posted 03/30/2023  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roma2021 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My thoughts run back and forth on this one. I feel the price is reasonable, likely around 120-150 euro, depending on how motivated the seller is and how negotiable we are . . .
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 Posted 03/30/2023  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Roma, if you like the coin, buy it. You may regret not doing so later if you decide you want it but it has already gone to another home. Just be advised that it may be slightly more difficult to sell later on, because the market for these coins is not quite as broad as it would be for traditional US gold issues of the same era.

Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 03/30/2023  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Easy to buy, tough to sell.
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 Posted 03/30/2023  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If the price is right to you and the coin speaks to you, then buy it. You'll always be second guessing yourself if you don't. Don't expect an immediate ROI. Hold onto it for a few years and see what happens. Things do change in our collecting world. I'm always the optimist!
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 Posted 03/30/2023  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know it's easy sometimes to buy something and go "I'll never sell that, why worry?" but then sometimes life changes and you have to do things you weren't planning on. I have had to sell off about 25% of the value of my collection in the last 3 years to cover medical expenses. Some of those coins were very nice and I deeply regret having to sell them, but the fact that they WERE nice made them easier to sell.

That's what I mean when I mention why things might be harder to sell later -- if the day ever comes when you need to trade coins for cold, hard cash, you want coins that you'll likely be able to get your money back on, if not make a profit. Same reason I don't advise people to buy damaged coins in most cases, unless the rarity/scarcity can justify it. If you're dead set on having a fractional gold $1, there are much better examples available for not a lot more money (you can buy the same coin in AU or Uncirculated without a hole in it for maybe an extra 100 euros if you shop around.)

I do understand it's probably quite a bit harder to find fractional gold issues in Italy, though, so that may be one point in favor of buying this particular example.
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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