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Replies: 13 / Views: 684 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2844 Posts |
When Sheldon came up with his rarity scale, there were lots of them. But since the 1940's a lot of coins have surfaced and most of the former R-6's disappeared. I found a previous attempt to do this on one of our forbidden sites, under the title "post your r6 r7 and r8 coins here". The poster was frustrated with what he got - definitions of the Sheldon system, and tons of VAM, Overton, etc etc etc varieties. I'm not looking for VAM's (or any of the other die variety series), conditional rarities, proofs, unique coin strikes like the 1870-S dollar, or California fractionals. Just circulation strikes with 30 or less survivors, using PCGS populations as a start. I don't have any difficulty finding lots of R-5's, but finding an R-6 circulation coin eludes me. "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq 09/17/2023 8:06 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
2844 Posts |
I started digging and found several, among the half eagles 1810-1829.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3388 Posts |
Seems like gold might be a place to look. 1861-D $1 only has 30 graded at NGC for example.
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
2844 Posts |
Gold is a good place to look kbbpll. The 1861-D is the key to the whole gold dollar series, and priced accordingly. But the PCGS population is 75, so by that measure it's an R-4 approaching R-5. A lot of the 1855-1878 circulation strike gold is in that R-4 to R-5 scarcity range, but I haven't found an R-6 yet. Most of the coins that we prize for collecting are not rare. For instance, a 1901-S Barber quarter has 2000 PCGS survivors, which gives it a Sheldon rank of R-1, which is very common.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq 09/18/2023 09:13 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3388 Posts |
Well, there is only one known 1652 NE threepence, but you probably don't count that as a US coin, although certainly it was a "regular issue." There are 12 surviving 1933 $20 with only one legal to own, but does regular issue imply authorized release to the public? The original mintage of 1804 dollars was much less than 30, but I don't recall how many types 2 and 3 there are, or where that fits into your definition. Same with the 1894-S 10c - they're designated as proof but technically they aren't, and again depends on what regular issue means. 1873-CC no arrows dime has only one, but are you excluding that as a variety? Others to consider - 1866 no motto $1, 1870-S $1 (I don't know why you're excluding that one).
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
2844 Posts |
I'm not interested in the one coin rarities kbbpll, but in what Sheldon considered rare coins (13-30 examples). In the 1940's there were a lot of R-6's but they have disappeared as more examples were found. Slabbing has documented them, and it's no longer a matter of searching old auction catalogs to find examples. I had the 1987 Doug Winter book on Charlotte gold, which has populations that are now obsolete. An R-6 raritiy like the 1846-C half eagle is now R-3, with a PCGS population of 300. What I have found so far is that true Sheldon R-6's sell in the six to seven figures price range. I had hoped to own a truly rare US circulating coin someday, but there's no chance at these prices. Found another one. 1875 half eagle, which actually falls in the Sheldon R-7 category. After the 1854-S it is the rarest of the regular issue half eagles. Another half million dollar coin. https://coinparade.co.uk/sheldon-ra...arity-coins/
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq 09/18/2023 2:17 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10560 Posts |
Perhaps the 1795 Jefferson Head cents, plain edge
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1792 Posts |
I assume you are not considering varieties? Otherwise, I am sure there are a number of early cents and 1/2 cent varieties (for example the 1796 1/2 no pole) which qualify as true R-6s. Personally, I have a Feuchtwanger which is R-6+ but they were not circulating coinage. My scarcest Early Cents are R-5+s so they don;t qualify either.
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
2844 Posts |
I am looking for straight circulation issues and trying to stay away from varieties. I used to own an 1846-C half eagle and was disappointed when my "rare" R-6 became a "less common" R-3. I suspect that a lot of my raw R-4 and R-5 coins will drop too, as more raw coins are slabbed and tallied.
I have a reasonably uncommon 1794 S-23 cent (R-4 from what I've read, but PCGS has only slabbed 4) but I'm not really looking for that kind of rarity. I like the cent though - Liberty looks like she has the mumps.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq 09/22/2023 02:05 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3388 Posts |
Isn't this a tough thing to ask given your criteria? The more well-documented a series is, the more likely that the assigned rarity is based on specific die pairs (varieties) and not the overall rarity. The earlier rarity designations were only based on someone's WAG anyway, right? And what does an R-6 mean if there are also an R-6 number of collectors, and how does it becoming an R-3 really matter? In other words, why were you disappointed?
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
2844 Posts |
Because I search for rare coins when I can find them kbbpll. And Sheldon is my standard for rarity. When he set up his criteria it was just a broad scarcity by date. He identified the large cent varieties, and was one of the great collectors of them, but that is a refinement beyond the R classification. The 1794 head of 1794 cent has 66 (? hard to count them accurately) Sheldon die varieties. But in the broad rarity classification it is a coin with 3000 population, which makes it an R-1. There's nothing disappointing about the coins at all, but they aren't rare.
The populations of those R-6 and R-7 half eagles are pretty well set at this point and unlikely to increase.That level of rarity commands very high prices these days.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq 09/22/2023 02:07 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3388 Posts |
I guess I don't see it as a big deal. Over the years many "rare" coins have been found in the ground, in somebody's biscuit tin, in shipwrecks, in a horde, etc. Other times a coin is determined to have been counted more than once, so it gets more rare. I don't expect it to be a static measure or guaranteed, or that it was even accurate at the time the rarity number was assigned. Like your R-6 going to R-3 example - 200 coins didn't magically appear, they existed all along, so the R-6 measure was just wrong.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10560 Posts |
One thing to keep in mind when reviewing "rarity scales" is that - like any other survey - they are only as accurate as the number of people who report to them. For very rare coins with very small populations, where each individual coin is constantly tracked (e.g. 1804 dollars, 1913 V nickels) this is not an issue. In Mr. Sheldon's time, when determining the rarity of large cent varieties, rarity was based almost entirely on word of mouth among a very small group of collectors - access to actual records from auctions and collectors was difficult, mostly the job of correspondence by mail and research in libraries. As information availability and sharing continually improved, new research was performed, access to data improved, and communication became much easier, it was necessary to revise a great many of the previous rarity estimates for all of Sheldon's varieties except the very rarest; and even today, new examples of very rare coins are turning up, pulled from a farmer's field, or a dusty forgotten box in a museum, or an inherited pouch of coins passed down for two centuries that is just now seeing the light of day. This can also happen with, e.g. the discovery of hoards, or the release of large amounts of coins previously stored away in bank vaults, etc. The takeaway from this is that rarity ratings are not fixed - they are variable, and they can and will change as time goes on; and this variability is proportional to the existing population as reported. In other words, the less rare a coin is, the more likely a rarity rating for that coin will be inaccurate, and the more likely that the degree of that inaccuracy will vary.
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
2844 Posts |
If someone discovered a hoard of 100 1822 half eagles, the coin's value would plummet by a factor of at least 100. We have seen similar behavior with GSA release of the CC Morgans. Before the release by GSA, the 1885-CC was coveted the same way 1889-CC's still are. Now it's just a garden variety uncirculated CC. I own one very worn 1885-CC by choice, as an example of numismatic history. The GSA coins aren't interesting to me. The difference is that mine was collected out of circulation when it was a "stopper".
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq 09/22/2023 5:35 pm
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Replies: 13 / Views: 684 |
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