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 Replies: 30 / Views: 2,168 |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10470 Posts |
Looks like the black dots under the A and the R plus the black around the nose make it look like the same coin. |
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Valued Member
 United States
60 Posts |
Because it is the same coin.
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
@pacificoin
"Overall ICCS is very competent when it comes to grading Canadian Coins"
Not in this example.
Total, total incompetence.
@marv65
Not switched, barring new information. The pictures were adequate enough given a baseline of faith in the mint state grade designation, that's what failed here. No other third party grader would give this coin a mint state grade.
Edited by LandonM
02/22/2026 10:45 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5584 Posts |
Well, ICCS is known for not including cleaning(s).
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
And apparently also hairlines and circulation wear
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Moderator
United States
94586 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
Take really good pictures and then RE-submit.
Depending on the spread I'd do it a second time just for kicks...
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Valued Member
Canada
106 Posts |
I am not talking about the particular coin of this topic, but ICCS certification is easy to spoof. I won't provide any specifics of how to do it, but it can be done quickly without any special equipment and no evidence of tampering would be visible even under a microscope.
My approach is only to buy a coin if I can grade it myself based on a good resolution photo. Since ICCS coins are not always photo-gradeable (because of the plastic), I would never buy a coin without "return" option.
ICCS needs to work on their security. Imo, the best way would be to maintain a website that shows high quality photos, so a buyer could compare their coin with its registered picture.
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
@wade: definitely selling this coin with a disclaimer that I personally disagree with the ms62 grade, but Canada's favorite grader doesn't.
@mice: it's obvious something like this would be easy to fake without much effort.
That said, I'm confident it hasn't been 'tampered with', which leaves 'total fabrication' as the only other option. As ICCS has no effective means of electronic contact in the year 2026, there's no way for me to reach out them to discuss (gladly open to suggestions here). Also, in light of this, their aversion to documented conversations may be an indicator of 'something'. Being email-averse is definitely a red flag in business relationships.
Edited by LandonM
02/25/2026 08:35 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
999 Posts |
You're right, there is no email on their website that I could find. You can call them as they do answer the phone. Not sure what you can do though, besides verifying the code on the holder matches the denomination and grade.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
This is not a "total fabrication", nor is it tampered with..I am very familiar with the seller that was linked for this coin and it is an original, ICCS certified item, the seller would never do such a thing and the coin was very recently submitted.
Scott has no aversion to documented conversations, ICCS has a website and a phone number.. they are easy to talk to. Grades are an opinion and sometimes people can be way off in either direction, Scott however is still a stand-up guy. If you really want to, you can call and give the cert number, he will be able to verify it is a real certificate.
Feel free to call me Will.
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Moderator
United States
94586 Posts |
yeah, certainly not an MS62..  |
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
@thedollarman- as I've been clear on, I have absolutely no ill will towards the seller and he acted in total good faith. As a matter of personal integrity, even though I *could* initiate a return over this, I never would as it's not even slightly the sellers fault and I've been on the other side of BS ebay returns, so I'd never do it to someone else. He performed just fine and i'd buy from him again without hesitation. As far as ICCS goes, if they want to assign mint state grades to coins like this, OK, but their reputation as graders should own that. Last 'via the internet' ICCS coin I ever buy & 🤷 #8205;#9794;#65039; I say this as someone who, until now, preferred ICCS on large cents. Edited by LandonM
02/26/2026 08:41 am
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Valued Member
Canada
291 Posts |
Hi, I'm going to try to give ICCS the benefit of doubt with an explanation. Victorian 5 cents are notoriously hard to grade since many were poorly struck. The coin is so small and light that often metal didn't flow into some of the high points like the braid and eyebrows on the obvs. A weak strike can be difficult to differentiate from wear but the best indicator is remaining luster on the wear areas. However, weak strike luster will look different... Without the pressure of the strike this luster will look more fussy than cartwheel. From the video, that may explain the difference in color and reflection seen in the video. Some of the hairlines look like they may be die polishing lines instead of hairlines. Here is a picture from the video:  Die polishing is typically done with a rough polish and a following fine polish (think fineness like sandpaper). But it was inconsistent in the Victorian era. Since thy polishing is on the die and the coin as struck, it does not affect grade You can differentiate die polishing from hair marks by seeing how the lines interact with the features of the coin. - In that case of cleaning and hairlines on a coin, areas of the flat surface close to letters are protected so there is a slight halo effect (similar to how luster remains in these areas once a coin is AU) and cleaning marks go over the legends / letters - die polishing lines go right up to the raised figures on the coin with no halo and do not go over them, since these are recessed on the die. In the photo you can clearly see the lines going right up to the letters in CENTS and the date, but not over top of them. If this was cleaning, the lettering would be most affected not least. Although the portrait of Victoria is recessed on the die, it is wide and shallow enough recess for wire brush to polish those details. I'm not 100% sure of this from the video taken but I think that may be an explanation of the grading. Weak strikes and die polishing are a weird edge case for grading that always throws people off. |
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Valued Member
United States
60 Posts |
(In my opinion)
It's not die polishing. It's hairlines.
It's also not a weak strike, it's circulation wear as evidenced by the wear patterns corresponding with the patina. It's also cleaned as per every single universally accepted cleaning diagnostic.
I figured this was so egregiously bad, nobody would even bother with grading apologetics, but I was wrong, so I'll post the challenge I resisted initially posting but now might be merited.
Talk is cheap.
You tell me how much you're willing to wager this coin receives a straight mint state grade from either PCGS or NGC and I'll cover that action it does not.
That's open to you or anyone who feels this is an accurate grade.
The downside to grading is it's subjective, thus subject to elaborate mental gymnastics, but the good part is there are other neutral, 3rd party graders whose opinion can be solicited.
Edited by LandonM
03/08/2026 2:44 pm
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Replies: 30 / Views: 2,168 |
First Page
Posted 02/22/2026 07:04 am
