Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer 300,000 items to help build your collection! Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes.








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Why Clad?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 1,490Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
n9jig's Avatar
United States
997 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2011  5:18 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add n9jig to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Almost 50 years ago, in 1965, the US Mint started making dimes and quarters of a 3 piece nickel-copper sandwich 2 pieces of nickel-copper "bread" and a pure copper core).

The question I have is why did they not just use the same 75% copper/25% nickel composition used in the Nickels?

Furthermore: For the 65-70 Kennedy half that used 40% silver, also in a clad format, why did they include silver in them and not the dime and quarter (or why did they use silver in the half and not the same copper-nickel clad of the quarter and dime)? Could they have used a 40% silver / 60% copper composition through out the whole coin and retain a silver color and decent wear characteristics?

As for the first question, using the straight copper-nickel composition like the Nickel used they would have retained the silver color through out and possibly save effort and money by not having to have a 3 piece planchet.
Pillar of the Community
cladking's Avatar
United States
2270 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2011  6:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cladking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was critical to the smooth transition to a base metal coinage that the new coins could function side by side with the silver coinage in all applications including vending machines. To obtain the high electrical conductivity and eletro magnetic properties of silver it was determined that the clad composition was the cheapest means. Initially it wasn't possible to roll this strip and it was "explosion bonded". The three strip of metal were put in an hydraulic press and dynamite was detonated above it. Unsurprisingly there was a lot of trouble with clad separating in the early years. 75% copper/ 25% nickel would have resulted in widespread counterfeiting since the coin rejectors would have to be turned down to very low settings where almost anything could pass.

It's a shame they didn't use billon for the half dollar. Many of these very low silver composition alloys are quite attractive and look like silver. It was even suggested by Fred E Wallen speaking for the makers of the coin discriminators. The 40% clad half dollars are not very well loved but then billon coins rarely are either. One advantage to cladding the half is the ability to put 80% silver on the outside making them seem more valuable.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
Bedrock of the Community
Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2011  11:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The real purpose of the clad composition was to create a material that would be difficult to counterfeit. The explosion bonding needed for creating the strip put it out of the reach of the typical counterfeiter. The stroy about it being done to match the electrical conductivity and electromagnet properties of silver is hogwash because it DOESN'T match those properties as compared to silver. Also the coin mechanisms in the vending machines of that era were strictly mechanical and measured weight and size not electrical conductivity. The only magnet properties they measured was to use a magnet to make sure they weren't being fed slugs. They actually had problems with the vending machines back then because if they were adjusted loosely enough to accept both silver or clad they would also accept a lot of other things as well. If the setting were stricter that could accept silver or clad but not both. Fortunately the silver didn't stay in circulation long and the machines could just be set for clad. (This is why most machine today will not accept a silver coin.)

As for why silver was retained in the half dollar, this was a bone tossed to the Sentators of the silver producing states in order to get their votes to approve the clad composition. The mint/government wanted to remove the silver from the coinage completely but the Senators and Representatives of the Western silver producing states balked because they wanted to keep a captive market for their states production. So the half dollar was a compomise, if you will vote for coppernickel clad for the dime and quarter, we will retain some silver in the largest coin, and we will produce 45 million new silver dollars. They got the votes and the bill passed. Then when it became clear that the silver dollars, which were already worth more than face value would never circulate but would all be snatched up by speculators, President Johnson order the dollar coinage cancelled.

I suppose a solid 40% silver coin could have been produced, but it would not have been as good in appearance as the clad coins were with their 80% silver outer layers, and billon alloys of under 500 fine silver tend to discolor rapidly. (Often they would be pickled to dissolve the surface copper and give them the appearance of a higher fineness alloy.
Pillar of the Community
VisigothKing's Avatar
United States
4778 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2011  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add VisigothKing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since the nickel is costing more to make than its face value, why don't they make nickels out of the quarter+dime composition? Because of the vending machines or counterfeiting?
Pillar of the Community
cladking's Avatar
United States
2270 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2011  5:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cladking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

The real purpose of the clad composition was to create a material that would be difficult to counterfeit. The explosion bonding needed for creating the strip put it out of the reach of the typical counterfeiter. The stroy about it being done to match the electrical conductivity and electromagnet properties of silver is hogwash because it DOESN'T match those properties as compared to silver. Also the coin mechanisms in the vending machines of that era were strictly mechanical and measured weight and size not electrical conductivity. The only magnet properties they measured was to use a magnet to make sure they weren't being fed slugs. They actually had problems with the vending machines back then because if they were adjusted loosely enough to accept both silver or clad they would also accept a lot of other things as well. If the setting were stricter that could accept silver or clad but not both. Fortunately the silver didn't stay in circulation long and the machines could just be set for clad. (This is why most machine today will not accept a silver coin.)


The weight though is very close to silver.

I believe you're mistaken about the electrical characteristics not being a factor. I know you're right that modern machines will reject the silver so there is a difference but this was mentioned in Wallin's testimony to Congress and I have seen the old coin discriminators. Wallin's testimony is mentioned in Ginger Rapsus' "Clad Coinage" on page 141.

Now days the discriminators are much more technologically advanced and they appear in more of the coin operated machines.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
  Previous TopicReplies: 4 / Views: 1,490Next Topic  

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.23 seconds to rattle this change. Forums