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8 Reales - 1795 - Lima - Safe Or Not ?

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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2011  05:03 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi,


This coin is not mine, but I'd be please to have a second opinion about it.
Here are the pictures, without comments.
Thanks in advance !

8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?

Here is a couple of edge pictures of another one for comparison, minted in Lima in 1800 :
8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2011  12:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lima is in no way my favorite mint - they did not always conform rigidly to "standards". But in this case, I think the edge variation is simply too far from standard to be original.

In this case I will admit I could be mistaken, however, I would class the coin as a Restrike and have it tested to see if it conforms to the silver alloys used in the 1790's.

Specifically I notice that the spaces between the segments vary from hard contact (essentially overlapped) - see the first edge picture - to a significant gap (see the next to last picture). In addition, the center-lines of all the segments are not actually aligned - see the final edge picture for the most significant of these misalignments.

There is also some variation in size and shape of the circular elements (see final edge picture as well.

The edge has some suspicious diagonal cuts all made at one angle. Diagonals like this (although usually at a steeper angle) appear on many of the "Boston" type restrikes.

I also think (hard to tell) but the overlaps seem to be at 190-170 not 180-180. They are not exactly opposite one another. I do a segment count to be sure but with the variable length of the segments that could be difficult in this case.

Still a very interesting high grade coin even if a restrike.
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United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2011  04:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The two slightly different edge pattern styles as seen on the purported 1795 and on the 1800, respectively, should be correct for those dates (Lima altered the style right around that mid-to-late 1790s period).

However, aside from that, I don't like what the surfaces of the 1795 look like in general (even microscopic granularity, and cleaned), the scattered pores, how the denticles transition into the edge pattern (check that chasm around the bottom of the reverse), how the legend lettering transitions into the space around it.

Back to the edge pattern, particularly the overlaps... Looking at the reverse, as that's how the photos are, the overlap just before (to the right of) 6 o'clock looks normal enough... but what's with the other one? The center of that overlap looks close enough to exactly 180 degrees from the one just mentioned... BUT why is it so long? Also, seeing how the two halves of the edge pattern come together, shouldn't it look sloppier? Seems like there should be more ghosting visible from the extra bit of the first half of the edge pattern to make contact (which was then overlapped). Maybe we just can't see it well in the pics, or the edge application was just a bid odd but legit... however, it seems "not usual".

The piece is sketchy on multiple fronts... I vote fake.

8-Reales---1795---Lima---Safe-Or-Not-?
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2011  04:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks a lot for the explanation - always excellent as usual :)
I was not thinking about a boston type restrike back then.
The edge looks to have been done pre-strike, and details on the coin are nice.
Although, we can see some odd details, like a second ear on the king's head, roughly cut date, inconsistent letters (the I for example).
And the coin's edge is not consistent with the surface details - which implies it was done badly then (a restrict sticks to that possibility).
I was told the coin sings like a regular one.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2011  09:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob - The only thing I have to add to this is that when you normally have black spotting like this is normally a good indication that its high in silver content and possibly regal level silver content. Silver oxide in its most oxidized state is BLACK. I am not saying when it was struck but just good silver (i.e., >90%). Do I think its been cleaned based on this scattered and minimal black spotting ... yes ... but awhile ago ... have I ever seen a debased silver CC8R with black spotting coming back after say a 100 year old cleaning ... can't recall one ... John Lorenzo, Numismatist.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2011  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John - If this coin is a Boston restrike - I would expect it to be 90% silver - they were bullion restrikes meant for the China Trade.
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