"Cabinet W" Ancient Coins Seized; Wealthy Owner Detained

One could just as easily argue these coins are the cultural property of Greece, since Sicily was once their colony--although as you noted, neither Greek Sicily nor ancient Greece have existed for milenia. That said, governments have the right to define what objects they consider a "cultural heritage", and to regulate their export within their borders. Many nations do this with coins, although the zeal at which governments pursue the export of antiquities varies widely--and by time period. For example, if these Dekadrachms left Italy at a time when it was perfectly legal, I would say Italy has no claim to them. But, if they left while export restrictions existed, then legal title might be open to interpretation...depending how they were acquired.

I feel different regarding shipwreck finds. If a wreck is recovered in international waters, then the coins should fall under the laws of salvage. I find it a bit criminal when salvage companies do all the work, only for the treasure to be confiscated by a government who finds a way to claim it as their own, hundreds of years later. It sets a bad precedent, and may discourage salvage companies from recovering shipwrecks, which is a setback for everyone. If governments want "cultural heritage" recovered in intl. waters, they should have to pay whatever the market bears.

--just one opinion, and I don't know the finer points of law regarding these issues.

"I feel different regarding shipwreck finds. If a wreck is recovered in international waters, then the coins should fall under the laws of salvage. I find it a bit criminal when salvage companies do all the work, only for the treasure to be confiscated by a government who finds a way to claim it as their own, hundreds of years later. It sets a bad precedent, and may discourage salvage companies from recovering shipwrecks, which is a setback for everyone. If governments want "cultural heritage" recovered in intl. waters, they should have to pay whatever the market bears.
"

I largely agree with this - though I think the ones who claim the cultural heritage should have first option to actually pay.

I must admit I don't really understand the legal position of stuff found in international waters. It's all very well one country saying this or that -- even getting stuff through the courts in their own country - but that doesn't mean anything to the people or the courts in another country. So who is the final arbitor?

From Wikipedia

"Military wrecks, however, remain under the jurisdiction--and hence protection--of the government that lost the ship, or that government's successor. Hence, a German U-boat from World War II still technically belongs to the German government, even though the Third Reich is long-defunct. Many military wrecks are also protected by virtue of their being war graves.

"

What if the coins were recovered from a wrecked ancient Greek warship?

I guess that's what keeps laywers in the manner to which they are accustomed :)

However, the modern Italian government has passed laws stating that all artefacts buried in the ground older than 1550 are property of the State. Exporting such items is prohibited under Italian law.

It becomes a US problem because America has signed the 1970 UNESCO convention under which it is obliged to assist countries in repatriating artefacts that the source countries claim to have been removed illegally. The recent MOU Italy signed with the US makes this obligation stronger in the case of freshly imported coins, though I don't think the MOU covers things retrospectively.


Yep. And as far as the Italians are concerned, a 1960s provenance isn't good enough. They've had laws prohibiting export of ancient coins on the books since Mussolini first wrote them in 1922.

The Italians presumably have good enough evidence that those particular coins were illegally removed from Greece sometime after 1922.

Or maybe it's just an ambit claim, a scare tactic hoping to make ancient coins less valuable by implying that anyone who tries to buy or sell an expensive ancient coin "from" Italy is likely to have their name dragged through the courts. In their eyes, anything that scares away collectors can only be a good thing.


I would disagree about the current Spanish government being disconnected from the one that ruled there 300 years ago. The language and culture are identical, and the current king of Spain is the great-great-great-great-grandson of the monarch pictured on the pillar dollar. There is far more of a logical disconnect for the ancient Akragas coin from the government of modern Italy.

And not wanting to drag this thread further away from the OP, but Spain's argument is that Spain didn't have a "merchant navy" or recognize privately-owned vessels. In the time period in which Spanish wrecks are likely to be found (1500-1800), every single ship flying a Spanish flag was technically a warship (even if its role was primarily as a treasure barge) and therefore as deserving of protection under international law as any other warship.

To read more of Spain's attitude to treasure-seekers, see this thread.

Personally as far as Spanish treassure ships go, what right do thay have to reclaim treassure thay stole off someone else

My guess is: Since two coins were confiscated, some of those "info bits" apparently apply to #1008. Others are about #1009, see https://www.documentcloud.org/docum...s-weiss.html

Christian