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 Replies: 44 / Views: 12,079 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
They are unusual cast pieces but I do not really now this species. Very well uniform lettering for a cast. In cast normally the edges are filed by the minter which we do see here - but again looks more struck than cast. An intersting piece for sure - I have purchased Hacienda Tokens from this sealer - many - when I use to collect this series. My opinion he is top dealer in Mexican merchandise. My cast assessment I am sure is in error.
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Pillar of the Community
 France
1591 Posts |
Yes, I know this seller as well, never had issues.
But it doesn't mean it can be an ancient cast.
This one looks better than the other for sure !
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
from "dosmundos":
I don't think it is in any way possible to discern contemporary cast silver Morelos 8 Reales from later counterfeits.
There are coin dealers and auction houses who offer these 8 reales (Cayón being one of them). However, ask them how they decide on whether a coin is good or not, and you will not get a satisfying answer. They rely on their experience, they "know the seller", and so on, but the truth is that if you make a (well made) cast copy of a (crudely made) cast original, there will not really be many telltale signs to spot a fake!
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I would not be surprised if the silver Morelos issues would be detected to be debased. The cast copies of the regal coins that the insurgents made clearly are.
from "TwoKopeiki":
There is an ongoing discussion whether those silver casts (Morelos SUD cast silver 8R) are authentic at all.
An experienced eye can (at least sometimes) distinguish the look/features of even a good quality cast repro of a sea salvage cob from an actual sea salvaged cob. Along those lines, I would think that someone thoroughly familiar with these cast Morelos SUD pieces would have an idea of how to spot a "real" piece vs. a well-made fake... There must be some minute hallmarks (even if only under magnification) unique to how they were made. Obviously, though, foolproof scientific analysis would be most preferable. Now Kopeiki, just to clarify, are you referring to the cast silver SUD 8R in general as an issue --OR-- the (2) pieces in the Cayon auction? Presuming you mean the SUD cast silver issue in general, what is the thought on them... and when are they supposed to be from? Of note, Riddell was familiar with this as a coinage (that does appear to be the silver cast version shown as #31), so they're at least that old. He gives a weight of 26.45g, with a fineness of .880 from an example held by the Mint. Has anyone handled enough of these to say what the typical weight range is on them? That's a plausible point about expecting them to possibly turn up as debased... likewise, does anyone have any clue what the average observed silver fineness of these is? Some specialty publication on Mexican numismatics must have something on this... Quote:
from "colonialjohn":
It is surprising XRF has not entered yet in any of the top coin firms or grading service. Well, there is the PCGS "Sniffer"... I don't know exactly what equipment they are using (some sort of spectrometer, I think), if it's capable of determining alloy, but at least it's a step in the technological direction.  |
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
Quote:
from "realeswatcher":
Some specialty publication on Mexican numismatics must have something on this... Unfortunately not! There are some works on the Morelos coinage, but they don't study these issues in all technical details. Sometimes you get the weight in a catalog, but they're always around 26-27g. It is known that there were cast silver 8 reales because they are described in Eckfeldt&Dubois and Riddell. But nobody has done a deeper study of these cast silvers in particular. What confuses me is that these "silver SUDs" almost always come cleaned. It is rare to see any type of emergency money being cleaned, I assume because people don't expect them to "become perfect again", because they never were to start with. But these are usually shiny (the one at the start of this thread even being an exception). |
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
... well, and here's the one from my collection.   Looks quite identical to the one that started the thread here, to the one sold on ebay by "numismexico", to the Riddell picture posted here, to the one in K/M - the design of all these coins is very much the same. And, once again, it is all "nice and shiny"... Weight is 24.71g, but one has to keep in mind that for the Insurgents in the south it wasn't that important to match their silver coins in weight and fineness to the regal coinage. This coin came from a Ponterio auction, back when they still were Ponterio. But then, who knows. In any case, I never really put it up in any exhibitions, because, if ever somebody walked up to me and asked me how I can tell that it's a real one, I wouldn't be able to give an answer. Except for "well, it came from Ponterio"... Would be great to see the article by Virgil Hancock that Swamperbob was referring to. Which publication was that in? The Numismatist? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
"dosmundos" - is that the piece I find from Ponterio Chicago April 2008? Interesting observation about the surfaces... Then, it seems to be systematic... So, if they were a legitimate issue, maybe they were given some sort of quick buffing to improve the surfaces before they left "the mint"? Or, if they were all "spurious", maybe the producing entity buffed them to improve their appearance and increase market acceptance? Quote:
This coin came from a Ponterio auction, back when they still were Ponterio. But then, who knows. In any case, I never really put it up in any exhibitions, because, if ever somebody walked up to me and asked me how I can tell that it's a real one, I wouldn't be able to give an answer. Except for "well, it came from Ponterio"... Now that's a forthright statement... clearly a very tough series to get a handle on. Basically seems like you CAN'T look at too many examples, read enough on them, or talk to enough people in the know... more so than usual. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
I will do a free XRF analysis after March 1,2012 on this piece or a similar lower grade piece. Just contact me privately. This piece has got me curious on its specific alloy content.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
Quote:
Now Kopeiki, just to clarify, are you referring to the cast silver SUD 8R in general as an issue --OR-- the (2) pieces in the Cayon auction? Presuming you mean the SUD cast silver issue in general, what is the thought on them... and when are they supposed to be from? As you previously mentioned, Riddell documented one in 1845, so I believe these did circulate during the War of Independence. I think Carlos Jara mentioned something at NYINC when looking through Cayon's catalog along the lines of not being sure of the authenticity of that issue. I'll send a note to Carlos to see if he can clarify his point. Having said that, I am still on the fence because of how easy it is to counterfeit a cast issue like this, especially if you consider that the original issue was debased already. John, I will send you a note with regards to your XFR results. Just wanted to also add that this is one of the best discussions I've read on these forums as of late. I wish I could contribute more, but my experience is still rather limited. ~Roman |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Normally if you have some lower grade pieces if you XRF analyze a group this may give you a better prespective. I am well-known in the collecting area. Just send a group registered and we shall see ... one thing is for certain if casts ... these are very well made casts. Perhaps cast struck. The blanks are cast then struck in some press. We will look at the lead content and correlate this to its cast status. Every cast piece must have some lead in its alloy composition.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
If I get one by then, I'll send it as well if you want to compare.
But I'm also hesitant to spend that much on a coin which may be fake :p
And the ones at Cayon's auction have a high starting price already (+ 25% fees for Europe - other places get the more regular 18% fee)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Cayon gets non-EU buyers with the Spanish 5% "exportation fee"...
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
For Saturday's auction, it's the opposite : the coins are in temporary import (from the US I suppose), so we european buyers have to pay the importation fee (which used to be 5.5% in France, and now 7% with the crisis - I suppose it's the same in spain as they said 7%)
If you plan to bid there, maybe you should ask, but I think there won't be additional fees for you.
EDIT : you were right, there is an additional 5% fee for you. I never heard of it ... is it the same when you buy from other auction houses ?
(cayon took a lot of time to make exportation paperwork for me, while aureo send coins very fast)
EDIT 2 : regarding those cast silver coins - from their terms : 8. CAY�"N SUBASTAS, S.L. offers a life-time guarantee authenticity of items, otherwise indicated.
Edited by MathieuMa
02/03/2012 04:23 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
You know, something that should be pointed out explicitly here is that there ARE cast silver 1R and 2R in this series... If you were going to make any serious attempt to study the 8R, it would obviously pay to examine those issues as well.
Of course, according to Krause, many specimens of these pieces are considered "spurious" as well...
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
colonialjohn : I was wondering, how much time does it take for a such analysis ? (to sum up, the reason why it's not affordable is because of the hardware cost only ?) Oh, here is a half real from the same type, but this one is not cast (it's the only one I got for this type) :   |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
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Replies: 44 / Views: 12,079 |
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Posted 01/31/2012 1:53 pm
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