| Author |
 Replies: 44 / Views: 12,071 |
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
|
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1610 Posts |
Yes, I agree, it looks bizarre, I'm calling copy on it.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
266 Posts |
It does look good, design wise that is, this is the cast version so looking for the tell tale signs of a cast fake does not apply here. No one gives a weight on these coins so that will not help either.
What I do not like is the toning, but that could be from an old cleaning? I guess this would be one of those times a certified (slabbed) coin will nice.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 France
1591 Posts |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
There is an ongoing discussion whether those silver casts are authentic at all. I'm referring to the design in the last 2 canyon links.
|
|
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
I don't think it is in any way possible to discern contemporary cast silver Morelos 8 Reales from later counterfeits.
There are coin dealers and auction houses who offer these 8 reales (Cayón being one of them). However, ask them how they decide on whether a coin is good or not, and you will not get a satisfying answer. They rely on their experience, they "know the seller", and so on, but the truth is that if you make a (well made) cast copy of a (crudely made) cast original, there will not really be many telltale signs to spot a fake!
Obviously, there are some counterfeits that are easy to tell, at least if you have seen and studied several of these coins. Mostly, they are of the struck types. But with these, I would say "common" types, there is just no way.
Good thing is that nobody will ever be able to proof that it's a counterfeit. I guess that's why the auction houses dare to put up this type for auction at all...
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Czech Republic
803 Posts |
@dosmundos - I think there is an opportunity to study these and decisively attribute it as a period piece vs a later copy with use of XRF metal analysis to check for proper alloy.
I would love to hear Swamperbob's opinion on these.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Yes, I was thinking about it ... it's the only way I could think of - and it would end the debate wether those were made back then or not.
I wish some big auction house could use some of their money in order to do this analysis (and publish their result).
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
There is a way dosmundos by XRF analysis and determining its metal alloy composition and then comparing that to circulating regal issues from the same period. But let me answer this questions first - it's a modern fake. Is it too perfect? Yes - of course. Modern replicas will have modern metals making up the alloy unlike the coins of the realm whether we are discussing a struck contemporary counterfeit or if the item is from a cast mold. But if from a cast mold you have in/out gates on the edges and/or rim areas, blob lettering, surface air holes, etc. Poor 4***1 - We see this migration with the 8 Reales in the new Contemporary Counterfeit Book due out in 2013 via the American Numismatic Society. We see for the Portraits 8R's a quarternary metal alloy of silver-lead-copper-zinc for the 1772-1824 regals and (10) different alloys (so far) for the contemporary counterfeits, we then shift to a high use of german silver for the late 19th Century types and occasionally see GS for these earlies- but rarely - and GS is high in the Cap and Rays and then for the 20thC moderns we see paladdium, thallium, titanium, etc. more exotic metals and no silver or copper in double digit percentages. Its easy, simple, clear - but you need $100,000 XRF device. Follow my XRF analyses on world coins on E-Bay under seller: johnmenc. Not to buy - just for a different perspective. John Lorenzo Numsimatist United States |
|
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
Hello Colonialjohn! Coincidentially I just bought a coin from you through ebay - my ebay name is gadkrutzky! I missed out on the spectacular Sheffield type that even fooled the traders in the Orient, the one with the Chinese chops. Okay, by "unable to tell the good casts from the bad casts", I was referring to the methods available to us collectors who sometimes can't rely on more than a picture of a coin when making a buying or bidding decision. Unfortunately, I don't have any device to nuke a coin to see what it's exactly made of :-) As I have recently learned from a scientific article which I read (but can't claim to have fully understood), it is now even possible to tell where the silver used in a given coin was minted - as in the case of European coins that were shown to have been made from Spanish (Colonial) silver. However, I would not be surprised if the silver Morelos issues would be detected to be debased. The cast copies of the regal coins that the insurgents made clearly are. The insurgents did not melt regal silver coins to produce their own money, but silver bars they took from the Spanish (I don't recall if they also managed to set up mining operations of their own). A little more copper in the alloy would have rendered more money for the cause. So a real Morelos silver piece might, as far as the alloy is concerned, look like the contemporary counterfeits with a high silver content. Of course, as you observe, in modern counterfeits we would be able to detect traces of "modern" metals. I guess it would be a great thing for Mexican numismatics if such an XRF analysis could be done of the four coins in the Cayón sale MathieuMa posted above! |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I am jumping in a bit late here and the discussion so far has covered the correct subject matter. I am away from home reading this BUT I believe that the coin in question matches a known forgery dating from the 1960's or before. I will have to check to be sure, but in the early 1960's Virgil Hancock discovered and discussed just such a coin in one of his articles on forgery. I happen to own that particular coin now and believe this is a second copy. His copy was one that had once sold as an original but which he identified as a forgery. It was in the 1970 Louisiana ANA exposition show in his last exhibit. |
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I'm always impressed by your memory ! Thanks for the additional tip !
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Dosmundos - Well Swamperbob is the real expert here ... but certainly all Spanish American coins are in a great need of some 21st Century scientific overview/confirmation ... let's see what happens after the Portrait CC8R Book is published ... as this task is a huge endeavor as you can imagine. Currently there is a procedure called EBSD/SEM which is much more powerful tool than XRF which just gives you the composition. The exact composition via XRF is nice to have - obviously. However EBSD/SEM gives you the composition AND the microstructure or physical make-up of the coin. In simpler terms I am submitting a recent analysis to the Colonial Newsletter via the American Numismatic Society which will also go into the CC8R book with the Sheffields. Historians tell us the Sheffield Ware in Birmingham, England was made simply in a fusing process between silver and copper (or brass) under certain manufacturing conditions. EBSD/SEM has confirm this by looking at this interface or junction under high magnification between these two metals and confirmed its nothing more than a physical bonding interface with no other chemcials or added materials in play. The question always come up can you determine origin with these types of analyses. You can with simpler manufactured produced coins like Roman and Greek coins where you have one or two manufacturing operations and one ore mining location. It gets more complex once you enter the medieval period and alloy mixing commences ... but this subject is for another day ... <BG>. Edited by colonialjohn
01/31/2012 12:40 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Wow, that's very interesting indeed, I didn't knew these techniques.
It would be great if - for example - NGC would make such examinations for high end coins or coins from periods which are of unsure origin (the one I posted was a nice example - done during war time)
Well, with an extra fee, sure ... I wonder how much it would cost though :)
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
It is surprising XRF has not entered yet in any of the top coin firms or grading service. Most of our clients in the precious metal field or having to do with coins are gold refineries. A high end labtop XRF is about $65,000 and the desk top model I use at EDAX is about $100,000. With the gold refinery companies - the big ones - Obviously here knowing the percentage of gold to the exact percentage (i.e., not 0.1% but 1.0%) is critical. You do raise an interesting point - how many Sheffields do exist in NGC/PCGS holders? There is no need for you and I my friend to answer this question right now <BG>.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
|
| |
Replies: 44 / Views: 12,071 |
Posted 01/29/2012 10:01 am
