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 Replies: 41 / Views: 5,855 |
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
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My coins are a fairly inexpensive alternative to the very expensive similarly colored graded coins If I were a novice, I would ask him specifically what he meant by this statement. He may not tell me the real explanation, or just say that they are "AT" which would tell me nothing. If I would bid, it would be for melt only...if I knew what that meant being a newbie too  swcoin.ecrater.com
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Valued Member
United States
309 Posts |
Not only "buyer beware" but also "buyers responsibility", as in to educate themselves. Not that long ago I started learning about coins and collecting them. In a very short amount of time I learned about "toning", "tarnishing", "natural toning", "petina", "artifical toning", "BU", "MS", "proof like" and a multitude more things that are necessary to be informed when purchasing. I'm not saying that I'm and expert (very far from it) but I at least know enough to make an educated purchase. I remember when I first started learning about this stuff someone compared AT coins like these to clown makeup. If you are a "newb" and just start bidding on stuff, especially something that is this dramatic, then that is just proof that PT Barnum was correct. Educating yourself on this type of coin takes a few minutes, not years.
As for those that like them....cool.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
Artificially/purposefully toned coins are for a different market. I think they're more art pieces than numismatic items and some examples I've seen I've found rather beautiful.
That said, I wouldn't buy one to fill a hole in an album, nor would I buy one as an investment. If I were to buy one I'd probably put it in a holder on the wall where the light hits it in the morning. Stained glass for the numismatist. :-)
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
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And yet, if the seller actually spelled it out, his auctions would crash. You'd then get his coins for a song, because all the "foolish and stupid" would stop driving up the bid.
Not entirely true in all cases, some people apparently just like owning colorful but decidedly unnatural AT coins. A couple years ago, I purchased a lot of uncirculated AT'ed Merc dimes and Washington quarters for siler value. I decided to put a few on ebay at a 99c start and specifically stated that the coins were artificially toned(not just "AT") with a combination of heat and/or chemicals and you know what happened? Every auction ended at around 2x what I thought it would and every customer was happy to receive a coin that I told them was AT'ed  Below is an example of one of the coins I sold, I think that Merc went for ~$20.   |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1888 Posts |
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"Will acetone remove AT, or is it a more involved process to get rid of it?"
Acetone is a frequentely used solvent for a wide variety of organic substances, such as grease, oil, tar, etc. but it will have ZERO effect on toning unless the surface was unclean before toning happened. A toned coin has a surface that has been physically altered either by chemical treatment or heat treatment. This is more permanent than the type of surface coatings and impurities that acetone can deal with. If the coin surface was not perfectly free of contamination before it became toned, acetone may remove a slight bit of the color, because there is enough organic contamination such as finger oil underneath the toning for the solvent to have something to act upon. Any attempt to remove either natural or artificial toning will likely result in an altered coin surface that is much less appealing than the either the toned surface or the original untreated surface. Coins will gain toning over time, but will never lose it unless destructive techniques are applied. I wonder if anyone has ever thought about the long term stability of those rainbow surfaces, and what might be needed to maintain that clown show? Seems like the wrong type of storage could eventually turn them that lovely gloss black that silver oxide produces. Or worse, a stray fingerprint could eventually oxidize, resulting in some nasty AT on top of the AT . . . It's just hard for me to imagine that artificial toning has any legitimate place in the realm of numismatics. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
My point is that it IS billed as AT. Again, if you read a listing, and you do not understand it, shame on you for buying it. And AT is most certainly the same thing as using BU or AU. I do not spell out brilliant uncirculated anywhere in any of my listings. Nor do I say About uncirculated. I dont because those are accepted abreviations and I do not feel that I need to spell it out. AT is the accepted abreviation for these coins, so no deception at all. What it is is that you folks that consider these coins to be clowns feel that anyone selling them needs to have a heading in neon letters in 24 fnt screaming that the coin has been physically altered and isn't worth anything but the silver content. And if they do not do that or more, you are going to come down on them for being deceptive. As I said, we have bought two coins from Cowboy. We were very happy with them. I do not expect everyone to like them. To each their own. The colors exhibited can happen completely by accident. I believe Fredd posted an ASE of his that got toned just like this sitting in his shop. I have accidental toned coins in subtle blues and golds that I absolutely love as well. I have a 1934 LWC that is dark purple and gorgeous. And it was accidental toning. Its an MS coin in my Dansco. My point being that these coins are no different in my mind than a lab grown emerald or diamond. That emerald has the exact same chemical composition as one from the ground, Be3Al2(SiO3)6. It is still beryllium aluminium cyclosilicate. It is no less an emerald than one mined from the ground. Those coins exhibit toning that happens all on its own, just in this case they were lab toned. And will I pay more for them? Yep. I have an absolutely beautiful 1972 Brown Box Ike that is rainbow toned almost to the extent you see on Cowboys coins. Still in the OGP mind you (no, I am NOT spelling out OGP  ) that I paid 80 bucks for. IMO it would grade out around PF68 DC which puts in the 30-40$ range. Why did I pay over twice the book value? Simple. Because I LIKED IT and I wanted it. And I had the money to be able to get it. Thats why people pay more, because they like the way the coin looks. That simple. |
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Valued Member
United States
140 Posts |
When I first joined a coin forum, I had no idea what "LCS" meant. That didn't mean I was ignorant. Just means I wasn't aware of that abbreviation. So if a buyer goes online and sees a magnificently toned coin, why should they be blamed if they aren't familiar with a very uncommon abbreviation.
Now, if it were a 1878 7TF and the buyer was looking for 1878 8TF and buys the coin for the 8TF price, then the buyer has no one to blame but himself. That is almost like an "official abbreviation". As is "BU" and "AU". But this is a completely different story.
I'm not saying the seller has to put "Artificially Toned" in the title, but at least put it in the description so it's fair to both ends.
There's nothing wrong with being honest. But there is when the seller knowingly sells an item that can confuse the buyer.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts |
I bought from this very dealer as Fredd mentioned and contacted him first an he was real up front. And I got two of them for a real cheap price, so was not upset at all with the buy as it was a personal experiment of sorts to see how nice they are in person. Camera light can fool many let me tell ya, esp by the means of a tricky underhanded photographer. Even though after seeing the so called "AT" products, comparing them to a REAL naturally toned beauty is like comparing a Pinto to a Ferrari. They are kind of neat, but just two totally different things all together.....
Cowboyup something or another is his name.....
I put them back up for sale with AT in title an need to change to "artificially toned" as I have zero interest in misleading anyone an one guy asked me what it meant. An I took the time to explain an he was real happy to have learned something new as he replied. I told him how they use sulfur matches in envelopes, cooking, bleach, even placing on a sunny window seal, etc....
I truly never want to mislead anyone, I just think we all get comfortable with our coin talk like a ANACS Morgan MS-63 with nice bands for example. Most of us know what this means, and I think many of us assume all know this info, and that just is not the case. It takes much time an studying/reading to pick up all this, and I doubt he is trying to mislead as many in this business know the term "AT', like the back of their hand....
I like Bonehead hate this trend, and think like him it is good for the all original ones or naturally toned versions....
Edited by Silverhawk74
03/30/2012 5:46 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
And that is exactly to my point! To me, because I do not know the variant jargon, I have NO clue what the heck a 7TF is. Nor do I know the difference between that and 8TF. For that matter, right offhand I have no clue what LCS means either. I will probably go DOH when I find out.
Soooooo, if I buy a coin with any of those acronyms, and I have no idea what they mean, then bad on me if I over pay due to my ignorance. And yes, not knowing what LCS stands for meant you were ignorant of that information. AT is an accepted abbreviation accross the board, and a common one at that. So again I say, this is not deceptive. And if the buyer is confused and yet they buy anyway, they have graduated from an understandable ignorance to stupid.
*EDIT* As soon as I hit send, it hit me...7TF = 7 tail feathers, 8TF = 8 tail feathers. DOOOHHH! Still lost on LCS....
Edited by smokeriderdon
03/30/2012 5:43 pm
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Valued Member
 United States
120 Posts |
Out of curiosity I contacted ebay and asked if they had a policy on artificially toned coins. It turns out that they do. Basically, you have to state how it was toned. So, something like "artificially toned with heat" or "artificially toned chemically", or something to that effect. If someone were to report this seller, ebay would take down all his listings in a snap. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
By all means lets rush and report yet another evil ebay seller. Because God forbid they dont conform to what we think is the proper way to go about this hobby. What an awful man he is. For shame. |
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Valued Member
United States
120 Posts |
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Because God forbid they dont conform to what we think is the proper way to go about this hobby. He is not conforming with Ebay's rules. There is more than a slight difference. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1388 Posts |
Feel sorry for the person that paid 82.75 for this. Ah well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. =]
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts |
Here is my link and I offer returns if not 100% satisfied and put "ARTIFICIALLY TONED" in caps, so I don't think I will be heading to see this guy here  anytime soon over this listing, lol.... And if you bought it now, after pay-pal an shipping I may LOSE money  lol. I could care less at this point  as I would just turn the money from those two into a nice slabbed natural toned version an proceed to banana dance....  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...160772660329Edited by Silverhawk74
03/30/2012 7:36 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts |
"My point being that these coins are no different in my mind than a lab grown emerald or diamond. That emerald has the exact same chemical composition as one from the ground, Be3Al2(SiO3)6. It is still beryllium aluminum cyclosilicate. It is no less an emerald than one mined from the ground. Those coins exhibit toning that happens all on its own, just in this case they were lab toned."
Strong point there, but I would compare it to taking a nice old gun that had WRONGLY been cleaned like an old colt you would see on Pawn stars, and as the expert says...."Take that thing back out in your back yard an re-burry it for a few years.", lol. Why, cause it needs that patina, patina sells. Patina screams old. If you are trying to determine if a high dollar piece of old currency or an old signed document of significance is authentic, you know if the ink is brown you are good, but if it is still blue or black, its a fraud fake.....
Us as humans are simply INTERFERING and SPEEDING up that process in the end, even though often it does not form in an ATTRACTIVE fashion, be it naturally toned or AT. And other times it forms in magnificent way (sometimes AT even) which is like an artistic piece made by God or nature the way I see it.....
Edited by Silverhawk74
03/30/2012 8:00 pm
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Replies: 41 / Views: 5,855 |
First Page
Posted 03/30/2012 10:47 am
