Lima 4 Reales - 1820 - Ferdinand VII - Counterfeit/Fake Or Not ?

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Author	Replies: 6 / Views: 4,901
MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 04/15/2012 08:22 am Here is a 4 reales I received yesterday - this one is from Lima and was made in 1820. When I first saw it, I didn't liked the rim, which doesn't look like the usual circle / square (which are more spaced - and circles look more like circles) ... but I'm more used to 8 reales ... The edge design overlap is there - at the exact opposite, so maybe it's OK. What do you think about it ? Ferdinand VII coins are hard to work with, due to the wars going all overs some mints were not up to their usual quality. Report this Post to the Staff

realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 04/18/2012 12:24 am I don't see a problem with this piece... Surfaces look OK (a little more "natural" patina-wise in the seller's pics than in yours - I'm guessing reality is somewhere in between). Note there ARE a good amount of contact marks, crud in the crevices, and the shield on the rev. displays a bit of that "plata agria" that's been discussed on here before, seen on numerous 1820 Lima 8R and occasionally on other 1820 denoms. plus a few 8R from neighboring years. Off the top of my head, the edge pattern looks usual enough for the Lima 4R... the edge design always seems a bit cruder on these thinner pieces (that is, anything less than the 8R). There was a decent 1821 Lima 4R that hammered tonight which I nibbled reasonably at but lost... Softly struck obv, but interesting rev. doubling on it, a feature I've noticed on enough Lima 4R ca. 1820 to make it something of a trend. Edited by realeswatcher 04/18/2012 12:34 am Report this Post to the Staff
MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 04/18/2012 03:55 am Do you have the link to that coin you missed ? I didn't saw it (I'd like a more detailed one than this one - surface wise) OK, so the "bad" sound is due to lower grade silver (oddly, it rings just like a 5 reales from the catalan revolt). And the edge is just normal :) I was wondering, as it somehow looked deeply cut, but the circles were often looking like squares. I'm not used to this period (I'm collecting Ferdinand VII since less than 6 monthes - and it's the most complex spanish reign) Thanks again for your input !! Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 04/18/2012 06:02 am 1821 - 380429700330. Certainly not more detailed than your piece... You said "OK, so the "bad" sound is due to lower grade silver (oddly, it rings just like a 5 reales from the catalan revolt)." You hadn't mentioned (I don't think?) that it doesn't "ring" right... I wouldn't attempt to claim that that would come from the "plata agria". One thing about the "ring" sound... I find 4R to always sound weird b/c of their diameter vs. weight. Fours are relatively "thin" compared to the 8R... and I suspect that causes them to sometimes have more of a shrill ring. But, that's just speculation... I have a few Lima 4R from this period (somewhere)... I should dig them out to look more loosely at the rims. I see what you mean about the circles not being perfect... but A) the South American edge don't seem as perfect in general as the Mexican edges, and B) like I said, I sometimes find the fours to be a bit goofy occasionally in terms of what the edge application looks like, so that wouldn't darn the coin for me. You'll just have to buy another :->. This is why having multiple examples is good... it's also why I like holed/damaged coins on occasion - they make for great inexpensive, KNOWN GENUINE comparison pieces. Report this Post to the Staff
MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 04/18/2012 06:17 am OK, I don't watch most of the coins posted by centless ... I just hate those slabs, and he slabs them from a cheapo place to sell them for a better price (buy the coin, not the slab, and in this case it's even more true). I forgot to mention the sound. I compared it to another 4 reales one I received at the same time, a scarce mainland 4 one ( http://www.numismaticageneral.com/t...811-valencia ) I also compared to what else I had on hand unsorted : a Felipe II two reales cob from Mexico (which sounded like the Valencia 4 reales) And when taking some pictures of a wartime 5 reales - I did a ring test (that coins is safe, from Aureo) and noticed it was ringing like my Lima 4 reales (it was this one : http://www.numismaticageneral.com/t...42-barcelona ) - that's why I thought about lower grade silver (which is often the case with war time coins) I didn't thought of buying "bad" coins, it's an excellent idea indeed to compare cheaply :) The best would be to have other collectors around, but for now I didn't found anyone near my place in Paris :( Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 04/18/2012 11:38 pm Looks pretty good to me. The edge might be of concern on a Mexico City coin but not here. I have observed some fairly odd looking edges from Peru that appear real without resorting to XRF tests. The mouth is right on for a Lima coin as well. Report this Post to the Staff
MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 04/19/2012 03:52 am Thanks for your input swamperbob. I'll try to find others to compare, those rims design differences are very interesting :) Report this Post to the Staff
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Lima 4 Reales - 1820 - Ferdinand VII - Fake Or Not ?