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Replies: 16 / Views: 2,836 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7629 Posts |
Many people over the years have conducted studies to find out how many 1909S VDB dies were used to strike all 480+ thousand coins minted. The number is four, although I still have my doubts. I have viewed coins and image for over 100 different mint state 1909S VDB cents, and have yet to find an example of what is reported by John Wexler as "die #1." This doesn't mean that his die #1 doesn't exist, it would simply mean that it has to be scarce if it does exist. I found a number of examples of all other three reported dies.
While going through this study (over the past year or so) I also decided to do the same for 1909S and for 1914D. There's no reason in my mind why these keys should not be more completely studied than they have been in the past.
After having been through nearly 150 different AU-BU certified 1914D cents, I have preliminarily concluded that there were five different dies that struck all known examples of this key date coin. Because the bulk of the images I used in conducting the study are copyrighted, and I must first get permission to republish them, I will not be posting images of this study anywhere until I retain such permission, but I can tell you about the five different dies here.
Die #1 is the most common of all five dies. It developed a die crack rather early in its life, and the crack progresses through the die's use. The crack extends from the lower rim beneath the coat on the obverse and runs through the vest area toward the bow tie. The mintmark is higher than center and slightly closer to the 9 than to the 1. Given the die state of the latest die state coin found in the study, I can fairly assume there were well over 300,000 of these struck.
Die #2 is less common than die #1. The mintmark sits lower than die #1 and has a noticeable rotation clockwise. Study indicates that there were somewhere around 250,000 of these struck.
Die #3 is the second most common die. The mintmark sits barely to the east of die #2 and sits perpendicular to the other devices (without rotation). I have estimated the number of coins struck by this die to be around 300,000.
Die #4 is less common than die #2, and the die state of the latest die state coin found supports this. The mintmark sits lower and to the left of the position for dies #2 and #3. Assumption is that nearly 150,000 coins were struck by this die.
Die #5 The mintmark is lower and farther to the left than die #4. This is the lowest (farthest from the date) of any of the five known dies. This one is also the most scarce. Out of nearly 150 coins recorded there was but one single example of this die recorded, and it was EMDS, indicating that fewer than 20,000 coins were struck using this die. Of course further supporting information would confirm or rebut this, but until such information is found, I will go on record by assuming this scarcity is real.
Of course die state can be altered by a number of different factors, the most common of which being that dies are annealed for hardness, which retards wear. If dies are not annealed properly, they can wear faster and crack more easily than other properly treated dies.
At any rate, the VERY rough estimates of die to die strike counts adds up to account for the 1.193 million coins struck, so I am rather satisfied that the five dies in the quantities estimated is a more or less accurate assumption.
Just thought you would like to read my findings, especially if purchasing a 1914-D is in your future. Once I get the chance to publish this information, it might be worth considering to try finding a die #5 coin for your collection. As this hobby evolves, I am sure at some point that the exact die that struck key-date coins will come into play for value. Why not get a more scarce coin now while they seem to overlook this important factor. Edited by coppercoins 05/07/2012 8:59 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
I did mention above that I was also conducting a study into the 1909S (no VDB) Lincoln Cent die usage. That study is still a few weeks from complete, but my preliminary findings are that seven total dies were used to strike this issue, two of which are repunched mintmarks. The first repunched mintmark is so-far showing itself to be the most scarce of the seven dies, and the second repunched mintmark, the S over horizontal S is showing itself to be the most common of all the seven different dies. This could well affect its value once the study is complete. Right now, it is valued at a premium because of the repunched mintmark, but once it is made public that they are twice as common as any other 1909S die, the market may rethink their position on this. Of course everything I write in this particular post is conjecture at this time, because I still have some 200 more coins to go through before I will be satisfied that the results of the study are indeed conclusively similar to what I think they will be at this point in the study.
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Rest in Peace
United States
1943 Posts |
That's very interesting. Thanks Chuck.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4897 Posts |
Looking forward to reading more.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1137 Posts |
very interesting, thanks! You must get these coins from different mint rolls, right? I do not know how so many dies can be identified in so few rolls.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
chzman - We are talking about 1909-S cents here...not 1960D. There are no "mint rolls" of 1909-S cents to my knowledge. This study was done by exhaustively searching through past auction records with images, and using the images in overlays to find which of the known dies each coin matched, then saving the serial numbers from each coin to avoid duplication. In fact, I have gone a step further in saving ALL of the images of ALL of the coins in the study so I can go back and compare images of each different die to ensure I have not double-counted any coins that were resubmitted and have more than one serial number. This has nothing to do with roll searching. I would probably pass out if I saw a whole BU roll of 1909-S cents.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1137 Posts |
Ok thanks, I misunderstood, when you said that you have 200 more coins to go through.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3540 Posts |
Very interesting. Cannot wait to see the pictures. THANKS for the hard work and sharing of the info.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
557 Posts |
Ohh man , CooperCoins I can not wait to see this completed ..
Gotta say , I for one REALLY appreciate the time you take out of your life to Gather all of this information for us collectors ..
If at all , there is ever anything I could maybe help you with .. I ask you dont hesitate to ask .. I have plenty of time on my hands **recovering from a back and knee injury so my time has been into collecting more cents then anything over the past 6 months more then the past 6 years I've been doing this) .
but again , much appreciation from me and my father alone on your time you devote to our hobby .. Honestly cant wait for the finally out come -
Please let me know if you would ever need any help in any way .. Would be more then glad to help you out in any of your researching you maybe doing .. ..
Best of Luck on your research .!
Phil \m/
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2624 Posts |
Mr.Daughtrey: Again I am amazed by the things you do and the time you invest in this field.how is the site rework coming?or is it finished?
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Valued Member
United States
236 Posts |
Did you mention the hallmarks for the 1914-d die pair #5 or did I miss something?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
jdbooth - absolutely correct, you are. I have edited the original post to include the fact that die #5 has the mintmark positioned lower than any of the other dies. In fact, it almost looks misplaced low.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
As for the updates on coppercoins.com - I am reduced to a content writer because the code going on the machine is beyond my years of experience. The coders I have are working other jobs and don't have full time to devote to the site - alas, it will be done. No fine wine ages before its time.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1137 Posts |
1960D? I did not say anything about the 1960D?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4132 Posts |
I've been wondering if anyone had done something similar for some of the lower-mintage Mercury dimes. The four die pairs for 1916-D are well known, and none of them were used very long. Some of the other lowish-mintage dates have examples that show examples of late die state, so they might use a similarly small number of dies. For example, I've seen a number of 1921 dimes from a really heavily worn die that shows a strong clash (possibly multiple clashes). Most of the 1926-S dimes I see are in a somewhat late die state, so it may be a small number of dies used for the entire mintage. Also, it seems like the majority of 1931-D dimes I see have a filled mint-mark, and all of those might be from just one or two dies.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7629 Posts |
chzman - The comparison was used because I thought you actually believed I had BU rolls of 1909S to go through. There isn't such a thing - at all. So I said these aren't 1960D - which is one of the most common coins left in BU rolls.
For the record, a BU roll of 1909S cents - if it existed - would sell for in excess of $50,000. An original unopened roll would sell for double that.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 2,836 |