A Counterfeit Morgan For Swamperbob?

My guess is that the coin is real, and his scans are real aweful!!

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Mmmm, guess that shoe isn't gonna taste so good.

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By looking at his other auctions, the guy knows coins, his copper scans look good, but the silver looks terrible. Same as my scanner......

Coin looks fine to me also This could have been face down in a box and hasn't toned like the reverse. More than likely a bad scan.

Looks to me like it has suffered serious environmental damage from plastics. I saw a coin once that had similar damage that was wrapped in saran wrap by a mom for years to preserve it! It looked like this and was really icky.

Interesting coin that I would certainly like to see in person.

I think that based on the comments I read, that there are still far too many people who think of counterfeits as being only made for RARE coins. Contemporary counterfeits tended to be the MOST COMMON varities in circulation. The counterfeiters were trying to make coins that BLENDED in not the kind that would stand out when passed. Just today someone passed me a Bahamas Cent in change. Who looks at a penny even if the design is totally wrong? That is why counterfeiters concentrated on common coins in average condition. Their profit was not made based on numismatic value but based on face value.

There are also bullion counterfeits (off metal types) that were made to sell to intrinsic metal speculators. These can be older issues long out of circulation but very common in terms of bullion coins. These tend NOT to contain silver - are usually modern era (or back to about 1930) and they are on the junk end of the spectrum even for counterfeit collectors like myself.

But I can tell you without fear of contradiction that there are in fact NUMEROUS copies of COMMON DATE Morgan dollars that were made to circulate in the US at face value. Perhaps more than most collectors realize. Most were made during the period from about 1890 to 1920 when silver prices fell on the world market. The US and most other countries were using a defacto dual standard with both Gold and Silver. The big silver discoveries in the western US flooded the market. Dollar coins were made in huge numbers, but smart money people started taking gold coins out of circulation because there was a profit to be made. But that is another issue. The study of the metals market during that era is very interesting.

There are also supposed casino copies made to supplement dollars in casinos. These are, in my opinion, much more of an urban legend, but they may exist. I have just never seen one in person.

Then there are the tourist and GI dollars made to target (tourists and GIs) ever since WWII. These are sold to unsuspecting individuals by innocent kids or old guys who claim to have dug them up etc., etc.

But getting back to silver fakes, there was one point when the US dollar contained only 23 cents worth of silver. So the counterfeits produced at that time are for the most part FULL WEIGHT SILVER. They are also made with VERY high quality dies. One variety recently disclosed to be forgeries are the micro O dollars. The fact that they needed to be "rediscovered" points to just how well done they were. Does anyone really think these same forgers made ONLY micro O dollars? If you do - I have a bridge for sale between NYC and Brooklyn.

That all said - I simpy would be reluctant to guess if this coin falls into the BOGUS category or real one based on what I can see. It may simply be hideous photography or some kind of damage as was alluded to above. However, I am concerned that some of the dentils (especially those in front of Miss Liberty) do look suspicious as thought they might have dimples (on the top sufaces). This is a potential indication of a centrifugal casting. The color looks to me like the fellow increased the contrast too much to try to improve a bad photo.

I really hope that this helps to counteract the belief that no one would counterfeit such a common item.

I think that I mentioned in another thread the case of Frances Henning. He was a rather successful counterfeiter who operated in the middle 1950s. He was by trade a machinist and he manufactured a die making lathe that produced VERY good coin dies. His product of choice was the US Nickel. But he made 100s of thousands of them. He made the famous 1944 no "P" counterfeit of Red Book fame. I have been searching nickels for years looking for "Henning" suspects that are not on the list of known dates. Unfortunately any well worn die with "orange peel" could pass for a Henning nickel, so I doubt that anyone will ever know just how many dates Mr. Henning made.

The reason I remember this particular counterfeiter is that one of his nickels got me interested in the subject when I found it in change about 1960. That lead me to a local coin dealer who knew other counterfeiters and the rest is as you say history. It has been an obsession of mine for over 40 years now.

The point of this story is to confirm the concept that it is easier to make a small profit on thousands of copies that move undetected than to make a big score on one item that draws attention. Most counterfeiters know this and operate on the same principle.

Some of my favorite counterfeits are the small minors. I have 3 different Three Cent Silver counterfeits and 4 counterfeit silver 1/4 Reales from Mexico. When you consider the work involved and the profit margin - these guys were operating on about a cent per coin passed.

I have heard of but never actually seen the 1893 counterfeit Indian cents that were made so well that the Secret Service was very concerned. There is an article someplace in my files from a Boston newspaper dated 1894 about these "bothersome" coins. They apparently passed openly in commerce and even Bankers could not spot them. The Secret Service had this forgery ring listed as a HIGH priority because of the quality of the coins they made.

So always look at every coin you get and make sure it is real.

Conder101 You have described the scam pretty accurately. It is happening right now on ebay and in other venues, except that it is a forgery ring with numerous outlets operating out of Beijing, China. They have been operating for at least 6 years and they are doing in the neighborhood of $10,000 to $30,000 per week profit after all costs. That comes to no less than $3,000,000 and as much as $9,000,000 since I have been watching and I know I don't know all of the participants.

It is a shame that it goes on - but there is no way to stop them. They just change names on ebay and they make at least 1,000 varieties of dollar sized coins at last count. I KNOW I have not got a complete list because they are making new dies EVERY day. They even take orders for dies.

As far as dime sized coins - who knows - I really only track world crowns.