1821 Zs Rg 8 Reales - Probable Fake - Need Help

When I read the Riddell book again, I recognize that No.44 is genuine. What Riddell said the counterfeit Spainish American Dollar referred to No.45, not No.44 on the same page. I am sorry that I made a big mistake. This amendment is made before reading swamperbob's most current post.

Thank you swamperbob, your last post was so knowledgeable and I got a lesson from it.

Having read your posts, I just imagine at the olden days, it seemed there were no too much difference between the counterfeiters and those officials working in the government mints. They both worked for their own mints and produced the same products - silver dollars.

The government officials produced coins that circulating in the monetary market as unity (1) while those coins produced from the counterfeiters still can be circulating in the market but with a less value, that is, <1 (on average). Once those counterfeiters were willing to employ a more skillful engraver and input more good silver, their "money" could cheat more people, more widely circulated and the final average would approach 1 more closely. This might be the initiative of the counterfeiters and because of this, the counterfeits were struck more and more likely to be "real".

Why this unlawful activity could be so prosperous?

I believe there were no corresponding law to stop this unlawful activities for the time being and of couse, the counterfeiters had to pay their cost before getting a profit return from producing such fake coins. They were actually boosting the economy by increasing the money supply of the country. From this point of view, the counterfeiters were not so cheating as a whole.

All in all, using an expensive metal like silver as the legal tender will attract those counterfeiters to take these desperate measures. I suppose the risk of counterfeiting might not be too high also.

Bob, can you tell us when this massive conterfeiting activity stopped in US? At 1857 when the Spanish Mexican and Mexican dollars were no longer been the legal tender of US at all?

I have over 10 Cap and Rays and over 20 Portrait Dollars , I will set up my own system to investigate the S.G. of these coins, as S.G. is one of the most assertive data to determine it is contemporary counterfeit or not. Of course, I believe Bob's book will also be very useful for us to understand the field of contemporary counterfeiting - another half of numismatics.

Well, you just costed me 70 bucks, I was not sure you were on it ... :/ :D
I'll mail it to you if you want to check it out.

swamperbob : that bidder was myself, I did set a quite high snipe, but didn't expected it to go that high ... (my snipe was at 234USD)
I was unsure you were on it ... :/ :D
I said 70USD as we were two on it - one bidder only would have got the starting price :)
I actually wanted to get a nice contemporary counterfeit for study - and that one seemed to be a nice target - with inner core visible but still with superb details.
Do you want to check it out ? (if so I ask Stuart to ship it to you, and you ship it back once you are done)

Regarding the second coin, I cannot see it, I get the red message saying it's not available in my country ... not sure why.
The winner is : greatestateroadshow13 (feedback already given for it)

wonghinghi : One of the reasons has been detailed in previous posts by Swamperbob - it was due to higher value of spanish reales as Trade dollars, compared to english silver for example (they had an excellent reputation as safe coins). Check out the forum archives, there is a lot of interesting posts there.

No worries, I was unsure it was that one you were on it - I saw your post an hour before the auction end...
Anyway, that's how auctions work.

Do you want to check it out first ? Or shall I ship it directly to France ?

Yes, I was looking for a Sheffield - although for a bit less :)
I wanted to check the engraving, the edge, the way it was made, compare it and so on. You are getting me hooked to contemporary fake coins ;)

swamperbob -


I have set up a system to measure the S.G. of a silver coin. I use the 1797 2D as a standard of 100% copper while using a .999 silver bullion as the 100% silver. The hardware setup are as shown in other pictures.

My data as follows:

S.G. 8.88 found for pure copper
S.G. 10.45 found for pure silver
(raw data not shown here)
A chart for above two points is plot to find the unknown silver contents of subsequent coins.

Take my 1820 Zs Portrait Dollar as an example:

Weight of the hanging frame + coin in air = 28.80 grams
Weight of coin in air = 26.85 grams
Weight of the hanging frame + coin in water = 26.17 grams.
The difference in weight out/in water = 2.63 grams
Suppose the floating effect of the metal wire (iron)winding the coin = 0.01 grams (an arbitrary assumption)

S.G. calculation: 26.85/2.62 = 10.25

From my standard chart, I read 88% (silver content) for the value of 10.25.

This means my 1820 Zs Portrait dollar is not a Sheffield piece as described by swamperbob.

Is my coin a real one, another type of contemporary counterfeit or it is a modern forgery? Who can give me the further ideas?







Acknowledgement : swamperbob provided me the theory and some practical details for this experiment.

Those appear to be good numbers. I presume the 8.88 was the result for testing the George III penny or twopenny coin and the 10.45 was for the silver 999 fine bar.

The theoretical numbers for each is well within tolerance for this set up. So I think you have a full weight silver coin. But is it Real or a bullion forgery (unauthorized restrike)?

The edge was the cause of my suspicion about Sheffield but the SG rules that OUT. It is also NOT a Class 1 forgery simply because it is silver.

In considering real - I would say I have never seen that particular edge "error" before. It could possibly be a metal fin left over after the blanking step which was broken off by edging. But other than that I can not at this time think of a mechanism that would normally cause that appearance.

As far as Counterfeit Class 2 "silver restrike - not authorized" I see a couple MINOR style traits BUT NOT ENOUGHT to label the coin as a restrike. So barring some other evidence like XRF testing - I would leave it uncertain.