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 Replies: 8 / Views: 3,664 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2366 Posts |
I'm a bit confused by Charlton 2012, page 40 where it describes the Full Vine and Broken Stem varieties of the 1858 1 cent. It says the stem to leaf 9 broke first and then the vine inside leaf 13 and other stems broke. But I see coins that look like the stem to leaf 9 is intact and the vine inside leaf 13 is broken which doesn't match the described sequence of events. For example, the coin posted by dan-in-crystal-lake on this thread https://goccf.com/t/114812&whichpage=2 looks like an intact leaf 9 stem with broken vine inside leaf 13 while the coin posted by Bosox just above it is the other way around as Charlton describes. Or this coin currently listed on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canada-1858...em2320d7a612 . Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1353 Posts |
The first three dies sunk in 1858 had an intact vine and all sixteen intact stems.  While sinking the fourth die, the stem to Leaf #9 broke.  While sinking the fifth die, the vine at Leaf #13 broke. Almost all of the dies from this fifth die forward had the stem to Leaf #9 manually re-engraved in each working die, hence they show a repaired stem. This repaired stem appears differently in each die and provides a tool to identify the different dies. After many of the 1858 dies were sunk, the vine broke again near Leaf #7. So some 1858 cents, all 1859 W9/8 cents, and all 1859 narrow 9 cents show this second vine break.  There is one later 1858 die and one W9/8 die, used to make business strike cents, where they did not repair this stem. Haxby reports one 1859 die with this stem not re-engraved. Some of the later specimen dies did not have it repaired either. http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
2366 Posts |
Thanks! So the examples I'm seeing are from later strikes where everything was repaired/re-engraved except the Leaf 9 stem correct?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
No. The first coin is from the first three dies (intact vine and stems). The second coin is from the fourth die (intact vine and broken Leaf #9 stem). The third coin has both vine breaks and a repaired stem to Leaf #9.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
08/11/2012 3:46 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2366 Posts |
Okay, then I'm not seeing where the variety with the broken vine inside leaf 9 and intact stem to leaf 13 is coming from then? If I'm following what you and Charlton are saying correctly (which is not guaranteed by any means! :-) ) then this variety should not exist and yet I've now seen pictures of two examples. Hence my confusion :-).
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
It is the stem at L9, not the vine that is broken. The vine at Leaf #13 broke on the fifth die (a tiny break in the stem to Leaf #13, right at the leaf, happened at the same time, but it is minor). I don't have the 2012 Charlton with me at the moment, but I wrote the 2011 pages on the 1858 varieties, which Charlton abstracted to the front of the 2012 catalog.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2366 Posts |
Sorry, yes I did type that backwards.  Should have read Broken vine inside leaf 13 and intact stem to leaf 9 as what I'm seeing on the coins I provided the links to in my previous post. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
The coin that Dan posted in that previous thread, and the ebay coin you linked to in this thread, both have a broken vine at L13 and a re-engraved stem to L9 (over the broken stem). They also have very minor breaks in the stems to L11 and L13, right where the stems meet the leaves. In my books, I catalog these dies as Die Group RB. Maybe two-thirds of all 1858 cents fit this bill. http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2366 Posts |
OK. I think I've got it straight now. Thank you very much for your patience! :-)
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Replies: 8 / Views: 3,664 |
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Posted 08/11/2012 3:43 pm
