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 Replies: 35 / Views: 3,372 |
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Pillar of the Community
Egypt
3470 Posts |
Hello all, I have been talking to two of the coin dealers in our last coin club meeting about coin grading. I suggested that we should make a grading system for the Egyptian coins like that is used for the America coins. I meant that the grade for example XF should be defined for every and each coin. They liked the idea and asked me what would I need to do such system? I said that I would like to examine a great number of coins with different conditions for each denomination, date and mint mark. They said that they can prepare large lots and call me to go to their office and examine the coins. The meeting ended and I wasnt sure if they were serious about it. Today I received a call, and the two dealers have prepared the lot and are waiting for me this weekend at their office. This is one of my dreams regarding coin collecting. To place a grading system defining each grade for each single Egyptian coin  What do you all suggest to start this project? I thought of; 1- Categorizing the coins according to the amount of wear 2- weighing each coin and co-relating the weight to the amount of wear 3- measuring diameters .... etc I need all your thoughts, knowledge and advice..... Thanks |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
That's a great idea !
I think you should categorise VG, F, VF, and EF, and then try to explain in words the difference between each grade.
Pick a classic example of each type of coin (so for example, any date in the 10 qirsh coins of 1293) in these conditions and do a high resolution scan of each side. Then you can publish it as a guide.
It'll be hard and difficult work, but very useful to lots of collectors.
Please keep us informed of your progress.
Good luck !
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Although I've never like our system since it starts with GOOD for the lousiest looking ocins, if your going to make one yourself, I suggest using our system as a starter. The reason is that way dealers and collectors there could more easily discuss a coin with people here and other places. IF you have a copy of our famous Red Book by Whitman Publishing, go to page 9. There it is sort of explained what each grade should or could be. It starts at AG-3 though and I've seen coins graded lower. The reason I've never liked Good for a lousy coin is Good normally means GOOD to most people that use the English language. Not sure how or why someone decided that for coins, GOOD means almost BAD. As to telling people there about a 70 point system too, may well make them say, HUH? Why not 50, why not 75 or even 100? One more thing about our system I dislike. Trouble is changing it in Egypt may make it difficult to some day doing lots of coin trading. So although I dislike saying this, I suggest using the Red Book page 9 explanations as a GUIDE. You could make copies of that page and pass it on to all the others. OR you could invent an entirely new system, sell copies to everyone in all those countries around you. Then you'ld have this system all to yourself and make millions making it public. Of course you would have to share the profits with me.    |
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Valued Member
United States
73 Posts |
why reinvent a perfectly round wheel?
I just dont see the problem with the sheldon 70
I think your time would be better spent doing a lot of comparative photographs and descriptions to enhance the Sheldon much as is available for our American coins.
I also believe its a job that will require many people many years no matter if you create a new scale or use the Sheldon.
The problem with a new scale is showing off a Proof 95 Dinar and everyone will go PF95? huh?
Whatever, best wishes, I admire your enthusiasm.
Edited by goldfinger
09/04/2012 9:59 pm
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Valued Member
United States
275 Posts |
Borrowing the work of others is a well used method of getting started but you still have alot of work to do. Stay focused and we may see your name on a book or two some day.
Edited by Mechman
09/04/2012 10:43 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
I agree with gold. Stick with the system already in place. It will allow for easier ventures into other currencies. Have a system solely used in your country would severely limit your ability to expand into other things or just make it unnecessarily complicated
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5854 Posts |
I agree with sticking with a widely used system like the Sheldon 70pt system. When it comes to U.S coins, I think the Morgan dollar is very good coin to use to exhibit the grading system because it can be easily found well struck and with good luster, is common in all grades, is widely collected, is a large coin which IMO is easier to for someone learn to grade from than a small coin, and has enough detail in the design to show the progression as the coin wears. I don't know if such a coin with these characteristics exists in Egyptian numismatics but if there is one, I would probably start with that type/series first. For this project you are likely going to need a camera to take pictures since a grading guide is way more useful with pictures than without. If you use a coin to represent a grade, I would probably go with coins that are original and "problem free", generally well struck, and have at least average luster for the higher grades. It might be unlikely that you will find coins with all these characteristics, so compromises will have to be made. If you do decide to include an analysis between weight and wear, make sure keep in mind that a coin that started out heavier and in a lower grade may be the same weight as a coin that started out lighter and in a higher grade. Just a few of my thoughts and I wish you good luck with this project. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
9375 Posts |
Amr, I commend you on the task you have set yourself. Please feel free to send a bag of coins to me and I will help scan them for you. Steve |
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Pillar of the Community
Thailand
1509 Posts |
Oh dear, oh dear. Why would anyone suggest a system (that is the Sheldon) based on US coins when it comes to grading coins? Grading a coin is not objective after all one expert grader's VF35 maybe another expert grader's XF40 and what's happened to 36 to 39?. I think you need to stick to a broader subjective system as Pertinax suggested. I mean how many scratches on a coin distinguishes a VG from an F? Then again age comes into the equation. I would try to gather as many images as possible and then have a panel to group them within a grade. Again, not all of us are expert photographers and I find it much easier to do hi-res scans. I wish you the very best of luck in your efforts. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Egypt
3470 Posts |
Thank you all for your valuable comments. Quote:
I think you should categorise VG, F, VF, and EF, and then try to explain in words the difference between each grade.
Pick a classic example of each type of coin (so for example, any date in the 10 qirsh coins of 1293) in these conditions and do a high resolution scan of each side. Then you can publish it as a guide. Pertinax, You have summarized a part of what I intend to do. And added to explaining the difference between each grade, I also want to apply it on each denomination and date. Quote:
why reinvent a perfectly round wheel?
I just dont see the problem with the sheldon 70
I think your time would be better spent doing a lot of comparative photographs and descriptions to enhance the Sheldon much as is available for our American coins. goldfinger, I think that I didnt explain myself correctly the first time. I am not going to invent a new grading system. I only want to place a definition for the Egyptian coins in respect to the already existing grading systems. For example; In the Red Book, the Franklin half page, it defines EF-40 as: EF-40 EXTREMELY FINE- Wear spots at the end of Franklin's curls and hair at back of ears. Wear evident at top and on lettering of Liberty bell. If I would like to apply this for an Egyptian coin.... I will have to use only the definition of EF which is defined in the beginning of the book as just carl mentioned and it states: EXTREMELY FINE (EF-40)- Light wear on design through out, but all features sharp and well defined. Traces of luster may show. My project that I intend to do is to describe the Egyptian coins through the grading system so that each grade for each coin will be described. Thus making it easier for collectors to grade their coins and value them. |
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Pillar of the Community
Egypt
3470 Posts |
Quote:
Borrowing the work of others is a well used method of getting started but you still have alot of work to do. Stay focused and we may see your name on a book or two some day. Mechman, Thanks for the advice and I hope your words come true  |
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Pillar of the Community
Egypt
3470 Posts |
Quote:
I agree with gold. Stick with the system already in place. It will allow for easier ventures into other currencies. Have a system solely used in your country would severely limit your ability to expand into other things or just make it unnecessarily complicated basebal21, I agree with you too. I will not make a new system but I am thinking of not using the numbers beside the name and abbreviation of the grade as this might be confusing to Egyptian collectors and dealers and I am afraid they might not be interested to use the grading system. Well, in my country these are the grades that most of the dealers and collectors use; Uncirculated (Unc)- About Uncirculated (AU)- Extra Fine (XF) Below that is either a Good coin or a bad coin according to the degree of wear, toning, corrosion, scratches and dings ( PMD) Quote:Oh dear, oh dear. Why would anyone suggest a system (that is the Sheldon) based on US coins when it comes to grading coins? Grading a coin is not objective after all one expert grader's VF35 maybe another expert grader's XF40 and what's happened to 36 to 39?. I think you need to stick to a broader subjective system as Pertinax suggested. I mean how many scratches on a coin distinguishes a VG from an F? Then again age comes into the equation. Thats why I am thinking to not use the numbers that divides each grade into more subdivisions.... I think it will be very confusing to my people |
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Pillar of the Community
Egypt
3470 Posts |
Quote:I agree with sticking with a widely used system like the Sheldon 70pt system. When it comes to U.S coins, I think the Morgan dollar is very good coin to use to exhibit the grading system because it can be easily found well struck and with good luster, is common in all grades, is widely collected, is a large coin which IMO is easier to for someone learn to grade from than a small coin, and has enough detail in the design to show the progression as the coin wears. I don't know if such a coin with these characteristics exists in Egyptian numismatics but if there is one, I would probably start with that type/series first. D0ubl3Eagle, Thanks for your reply and yes there is at least a couple of coins with these characteristics. Quote:
For this project you are likely going to need a camera to take pictures since a grading guide is way more useful with pictures than without. If you use a coin to represent a grade, I would probably go with coins that are original and "problem free", generally well struck, and have at least average luster for the higher grades. It might be unlikely that you will find coins with all these characteristics, so compromises will have to be made. I had a meeting with the dealers yesterday, just to decide what we are going to need and make a small outline for this project. They will get me the highest possible grade in each and every denomination and date. They were talking about Unc to BU conditions. As these will be our reference that we will start categorizing and grading in respect to these coins. I know a professional photographer whom I will contact and ask him to take the pics of these coins and other examples for each grade. I need the pics to be standardized and I think he will do a better job than I will. Quote:
If you do decide to include an analysis between weight and wear, make sure keep in mind that a coin that started out heavier and in a lower grade may be the same weight as a coin that started out lighter and in a higher grade. Just a few of my thoughts and I wish you good luck with this project. I intend to do this as a research project so I will compare only within groups and not between different groups so that to avoid such mistakes. Thanks you for your kind wishes |
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Pillar of the Community
Egypt
3470 Posts |
Quote:
Amr, I commend you on the task you have set yourself Thanks Steve Quote:
Please feel free to send a bag of coins to me and I will help scan them for you. lol.... thanks Steve but I think it would be much easier if you send me your scanner  |
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Pillar of the Community
Egypt
3470 Posts |
Quote:f your going to make one yourself, I suggest using our system as a starter. The reason is that way dealers and collectors there could more easily discuss a coin with people here and other places. IF you have a copy of our famous Red Book by Whitman Publishing, go to page 9. There it is sort of explained what each grade should or could be. It starts at AG-3 though and I've seen coins graded lower.  Quote:
As to telling people there about a 70 point system too, may well make them say, HUH? Why not 50, why not 75 or even 100? One more thing about our system I dislike. Trouble is changing it in Egypt may make it difficult to some day doing lots of coin trading I think that this is confusing and I will not use the points. Quote:
OR you could invent an entirely new system, sell copies to everyone in all those countries around you. Then you'ld have this system all to yourself and make millions making it public. Of course you would have to share the profits with me.  This is the best thought that I really wish it comes true |
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Pillar of the Community
Egypt
3470 Posts |
Quote:
Although I've never like our system since it starts with GOOD for the lousiest looking ocins, if your going to make one yourself, I suggest using our system as a starter.................................The reason I've never liked Good for a lousy coin is Good normally means GOOD to most people that use the English language. Not sure how or why someone decided that for coins, GOOD means almost BAD........ So what do you think of adding these two grades at the bottom of the scale; Poor and Very Poor? |
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Replies: 35 / Views: 3,372 |
Posted 09/04/2012 8:50 pm
