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Replies: 13 / Views: 2,305 |
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New Member
United States
9 Posts |
I have been collecting silver world coins for a little over a year, and have purchased most of them on ebay. I have several dozen searches set up, and check them a lot. I've noticed that certain coins show up all of a sudden, and lots of sellers have them. Then after a while, the supply seems to dry up. An excellent recent example is the 1986 France 100 Francs piedfort. Numista lists the mintage as 5,000, and it seems like darn near all of them have been for sale lately. That can't be right. To compare it to a couple, the 1959 Bermuda Crown is listed with mintage of 100,000 and they're fairly uncommon for sale. The 1955 Czechoslovakia 100 Korun says 75,000 minted, and they're rarely up for sale (and never without a premium). The 1941 Romania 500 Lei has mintage 775,000 but there's never more than a handful up for sale with auction pricing (as opposed to price guide-based Buy It Now pricing). Does this typically occur because they actually were held in one place and then sold, or is my fear of Chinese counterfeits founded? I know it's partly due to trends in the price of silver or to holiday seasons, sometimes there are many of the coins I seek for sale, and sometimes it's slim pickings, but a lot of people, including reputable sellers, will have the coin du jour in oddly large numbers for sale. Is it that many of those I seek are primarily held in Europe and just not offered for sale on the site? I know I might not get the whole story, but hopefully someone can allay my fears of counterfeits. While I'm at it, what's with the premiums people pay for the 1947-1948 Mexico 5 Pesos? Is it because they're marked for weight and purity, and thus popular with bullion hoarders? I do know that Mexican coins are somewhat popular among collectors, but those are anything but rare (nearly 32,000,000 total mintage.) Thanks for your help!
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
Mintage is just part of the story to be honest - it's all about demand.
The bigger story is about demand. From my observation, it's usually the developing countries that are happy to pay ridicious amount of money, only to find out that it's probably not as valuable as it could have been. Good example such as China, Russia, India, Mexico.
Supply can be a funny thing - depending on the metal prices, they can be melted down. There's one thing to be certain - mintage will always be less than what has been declared by the mint (unless there has been restrikes or wrong figures have been provided). You may have sellers that reckon some coins are valuable and hoard a sizeable percentage, only to sell them off at a discount as they need the money. Deceased estate etc - you can name them all.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1374 Posts |
Great post with fantastic insider info there glarus! Hopefully others who have been following the same coins can chime in. I'm not a world coin collector myself, but am interested to find out what you have learned.
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
I really don't understand what you want, glarus; of course I am sorry for my poor understanding to English. Can you elaborate what is the purpose of this post? I bought coins (mainly silver coins) from ebay since 2006. I started to collect or buy coins in Hong Kong from 2004 and now collect over 1400 coins. I possess some of the coins you told in the post. Bermuda Crown 1959 (bought about 4-5 yrs ago by US$26) Czechoslovakia 100 Korun (bought about 3 yrs ago by US39.0) Romania 500 Lei 1941 (bought about 3-4 yrs ago by HK$280) Mexican 5 Peso 1947 (bought in 2004-05 by HK$75)
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Pillar of the Community
Luxembourg
588 Posts |
Hi glarus, the French 1986 piefort has been minted 250 000, all for the American market - guess why. Numista seems to be wrong there.
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New Member
 United States
9 Posts |
maudry, thank you so much for that information! Now, at least for the '86 piedfort, it all makes sense. It also answers one question I failed to ask: why are there so many of the 1986 and so few of the 100 Francs coins minted in other years, piedfort or otherwise? For those of you unfamiliar with these coins, the 1986 commemorates the 100th anniversary of the Statue of Liberty. Although no one called me out on it, I apologize for my unqualified use of the term "premium." I was referring to premium over melt value. One of the things I've learned is that circulated world silver, as well as many commemoratives minted before the business of commemoratives got out of hand (Liberian coins with Marilyn Monroe, etc), sell for close to melt on ebay. Some coins do have a following, and condition, availability and key dates do affect pricing. Since my original aim was to accumulate silver while having fun (as opposed to just stacking bullion,) I view "melt" as the true value of the coin and anything above that as the numismatic premium. I have strayed from my original aim enough that to me now, not all coins of equal fineness and weight are alike. I will pay above melt for something I don't see often that's in nice shape. But it's not because I want a "collectible," it's because I like the design or I fancy "the chase," and I haven't yet landed one. gxseries, your comments feed into something I've been wondering about regarding the '47/'48 Mexican 5 Pesos. I've often wondered whether a small number of parties are buying of most of them, and whether they were in one of those countries with newly-rich people (China, Russia, India). Another possibility is always that someone's melting them, but in this case it doesn't make sense since they sell for $28-33 when melt value is $25. Yet another possibility is that someone is advising others that they're good for hoarding because the weight/fineness markings make up for their being foreign, and because they carry a lower premium than Morgan/Peace Dollars. I think I can partially answer my own question about Europe, at least with the eastern European coins. When I first started out, I read or heard somewhere that collectors primarily collect their own country's coins, and no country is into coin collecting like the U.S. My main interest is 835/1000 coins. There are relatively few with a 25 grams weight, and fewer still that are readily available and in decent shape. Judging on the basis of ebay seller locations, those from Romania and Latvia never left home. I imagine mintage numbers are meaningless for those, since anything could have happened to precious metals stuck behind the Iron Curtain. One more strange observation from Ebay-land. As I watch several auctions for the same type of coin, I'll sometimes see one get bid absurdly high. I have no idea why. One coin will be XF+ from a long-time seller, with 3 days left in the auction, and one looking circulated for sale by a much newer seller and with 4 days left will suddenly get bid up to $10 over melt value. I have to imagine the Internet has really changed world coin collecting. Before the Internet, we were probably a rare breed in the U.S. I mean, who would want coins of various sizes and shapes featuring leaders, historical figures and national symbols made by people who speak funny and eat weird food when you can have a bunch of coins that all look the same except for the year and "P", "D" or "S"?  I'm definitely a "world" type of person (I love to travel, try cuisines, etc), so it was a natural fit for me. I love the variety, and care not at all about years or mint marks. I hope I can give back here some of what I've learned. I don't have the depth of knowledge that others do, but for the coins I watch, I tend to know the "catalog" type of information and am good at identifying unknowns.
Edited by glarus 09/27/2012 7:03 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
ebay is a STRANGE place. You can try to understand it but numbers of postings is subject to a VERY wide range of variation. On ebay - the day of the week effects numbers and the types of posts. Also weekend posts (usually higher) can be terribly effected by big games on TV or holidays. I have been logging in a series of ledger books (now into volume 5) EVERY Mexican coin posted daily within a specific set of parameters. I log from Cob to Cap and ray by type and denomination from 1/2 Reale (silver) to 8 Reales. I note counterfeits posted daily in the Portrait and C&R types of 8Rs only. The statistics are amazing. But you need to be a numbers freak like me to appreciate much of it. There are no NORMAL patterns of deviation. After 4 years I am only starting to understand ebay. Spot silver prices and the direction they are moving is clearly a factor that effects postings as does bad financial news and the Dow Jones average. It is much more complex that I ever expected. For anyone interested - I used to post annual results so there are old threads with some of the data trends. But for now - Chinese fake 8Rs (modern junk are down). The average has fallen from 8% of all raw postings (average for the first 3 years) to 2.2% for this year. Of course I have been reporting them diligently and about 1/2 of the ones posted were terminated before sale. The record posting of these fakes in one day (64)exceeds the total number of them posted for the past 4 months (59). So maybe the buyers are wising up. Overall there are actually fewer counterfeits in the Mexican coin group than in any year. They have been steadily falling off but the overall numbers of real 8Rs are way UP. In the Portrait 8R group about 1 in 200 postings is a Contemporary Counterfeit - about 1 in 40 is a Numismatic Forgery. For the C&R 8Rs (first republic before 1860) about 1 in 40 is a CC counterfeit and 1 in 100 Numismatic. The Second Republic rates are FAR different with 1 in 500 being CCC and 1 in 50 being Numismatic. For anyone interested in the 4 plus years so far I have looked at over 834,600 ebay items.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Impressive statistics swamperbob ! I also noticed a slow down in fake postings on ebay - at least from China... maybe they are going to be sold in a less visible way (small dealers, small auction sites, etc ...)
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Same items sold by a reputable seller would have a extra 20% premium of the final price is common seen and acceptable to me. As a Chinese and a general coins buyer from ebay since 2006, I now tend to buy coins from only a small number of reputable sellers to avoid buying counterfeits. Better pictures on ebay can help buyers to distinhuish real coin from counterfeits. More buying experiences (no matter positive or negative) from ebay will equip the buyers to exclude forgery items as well.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
It turns out that occasionally a stash of one type of coin can be released into the market. If they are sold off in small bulk lots, it is possible that a few sellers may all appear at once.
That sometimes happens with ancient coins, where a hoard is discovered, and sometime later (perhaps years) they appear on the market. In this case it pays to be wary, because job lots of fakes are sometimes produced.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
swamperbob: That effort would have to make you some sort of a hero for us within the CCF! Thankyou.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Yes, we need something above "Pillar Of The Community" :D
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New Member
United Kingdom
24 Posts |
Regarding those big 47/48 Mexican 5 pesos - I think they are popular due to their size, the fact that they survive in high grade, and have an attractive design. Essentially, they are a massive hunk of attractive silver that isn't super modern. I used to buy them at bullion levels whenever I could get them - and I don't really collect modern (here meaning post 1905) Mexican coins as a rule.
Edited by bjorn 10/11/2012 08:37 am
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
There may be another factor at play(pure hypothesis): a collecting life cycle. Perhaps a particular rare coin is held by the same generational group of collectors.....at some stage the economic and collecting patterns are such that that group of collectors sell at approximately the same time....likewise there is a group of buyers who will snap up the items......and who will hold the coins for a similar period.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 2,305 |
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