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 Replies: 16 / Views: 9,758 |
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Valued Member
United States
130 Posts |
For my first post in the UK section I present this Sep. 1689 Irish 'Gun Money' Shilling - gun money referring to the melted cannons that provided the metal for this and similar issues. Written on the flip is a catalog number: Sealy 6581d. Any input on condition, mintage or value is appreciated. Thanks for looking.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1351 Posts |
Gun money is a bit misleading.More likely brass from bells and the like.
They are hard to grade because of the metal/strike.It is eye appeal every time.They are very cheap
for the history.
The value is about £15-£20 if honest.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Just a query; James II reigned till December 1688; how comes the coin is dated 1689? Just wondered; there must be a logical explanation.
Mike.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2605 Posts |
Yes, (Catholic) James was pushed out by the protestant nobility who called on William III (of Orange). Jacob was trying to regain his power 1689 through 1701, battling from Ireland. That's when he was issuing the "gun money" with the promise to redeem those for silver after he returns to the throne. Never happened.
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Valued Member
Ireland
201 Posts |
I have a mention in my book that large shillings were minted from July 1689 - April 1690.
Also it shows small shillings minted from April - September 1690.
That tends to show this coin is a large shilling.
Prices for FINE show as £55 for the large shilling and £35 for the small one.
Hope this helps.
Sheen
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Valued Member
Ireland
215 Posts |
Peter1234 this discussion reminds me of the story about melting the brass from church bells to make the gun money, apparently James insisted that all Church Bells be taken down and melted, a local church minister/priest had already removed the bell from the tower and buried it in the graveyard close by,protecting the ancient bell from the smelters, Of course soon after, the Minister/Priest passed away and nobody was sure where he had buried the bell, many many many years later, an old man walking around the said graveyard with his son, when he stopped at a grave and said to his son, this is where the missing church bell was buried all them years ago son, the son asked his father, "how do you know that dad", to which the father pointed to the Headstone which read, Here Lies "A. Bell 8th Oct 1689"
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2830 Posts |
great story.
I've started trying to get a set of the gun money: each denomnation, and in different months.
Yours is a better example, in my experience of the market: as all of the design-elements are plainly discernible. Many of those on offer are illegible.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Many thanks for the explanation svslav; an intriguing story.
And also the bell story from greeniejim; hadn't heard that one before.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
XRF analysis (my own research) on these issues show no consistent brass or bronze mixtures. From the compositional analysis it does look like a "melting pot" of materials but having a distinctive brass or bronze composition. I could see where gun money has come from due to their diverse compositions with copper, zinc and tin being all over the place. Gun money or bell money - call it what you like - but either is crude in terms of what really is happening - I would call it more like a form of emergency money.
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1351 Posts |
Fantastic bit of history.I think William of orange arrived at Brixham. The Orange men still march.Quite frankly my cousins are catholic and I'm brought up C of E.We don't fight.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2875 Posts |
One of the first things that William did - monetary wise - after defeating James II at the Boyne was reduce the nominal value of all of this "gun-money" . He issued a proclaimation from Finglas (near Dublin) whereby the value of the token coinage was reduced. The crowns were tariffed at a penny, the half crowns at three farthings and the shillings and six pences at one farthing each.
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Valued Member
60 Posts |
This is mine, 1690 Shilling   |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2830 Posts |
beautiful coins ! As I understand it, these are the only coins to bear a month. First a note about dates: "James II complete gunmoney issue in Ireland only lasted from June 1689 until July 1690 so no confusion occurs by there being two Marches! The coins dated after July 1690 were struck in Limerick after James had fled to France. Minting of gunmoney in Limerick continued until October 1690." http://www.irishcoinage.com/GUNMONEY.HTMAnother note regarding dates: "from the 12th century until 1751 the legal year in England began on 25 March (Lady Day). So, for example, the Parliamentary record lists the execution of Charles I on 30 January as occurring in 1648 (as the year did not end until 24 March), although modern histories adjust the start of the year to 1 January and record the execution as occurring in 1649. Most Western European countries changed the start of the year to 1 January before they adopted the Gregorian calendar. For example, Scotland changed the start of the Scottish New Year to 1 January in 1600 (this means that 1599 was a short year). England, Ireland and the British colonies changed the start of the year to 1 January in 1752 (so 1751 was a short year with only 282 days) though the tax year has stayed as 25 March to this day (being 6 April in the new calendar). Later that year in September the Gregorian calendar was introduced throughout Britain and the British colonies. ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendarSo, I'm wondering what the sequence of months in that era was ? Edited to add: I did a little more research and found images in catalogues of a shilling XII and a half-crown XXX bearing date "Jan 1689", so this, coupled with the other information in this thread, shows that dates were as per the English legal convention of that time. Edited by Peter THOMAS
11/19/2012 9:39 pm
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Moderator
 Australia
16829 Posts |
Quote:
So, I'm wondering what the sequence of months in that era was ? The sequence of possible dates for Gunmoney coins runs as follows: Jun 1689 Jul 1689 Aug 1689 Sept 1689 Oct 1689 Nov 1689 Dec 1689 Jan 1689 Feb 1689 Mar 1689 (up until 25th March) Mar 1690 (this particular date is scarcer, because this period is only one week long) Apr 1690 May 1690 Jun 1690 Prior to 1751, if one counts the tiny piece of March as the first month of the year, then September, October, November, and December actually still were the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th months of the calendar, as their names suggest they ought to be. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2830 Posts |
thankyou SAP, that's what I was looking for, but could not get my head around it by myself (Tropical Lethargy has set in, as it does every November).
I was aware of the 1752 issue: my other hobby is genealogy, and when you get back that far, the parish records are difficult to follow until you remember that Jan & Feb follow Dec. in my limited experience, the parish records begin the new year in March, but not just the final week of March. But my experience of research in that era is limited.
Further to what I wrote earlier, I have now sighted at "Feb 1689" coin. The interesting issue will be whether I can find a "March 1689".
Edited by Peter THOMAS
11/20/2012 6:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1319 Posts |
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Replies: 16 / Views: 9,758 |
Posted 10/08/2012 1:48 pm
