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 Replies: 21 / Views: 3,296 |
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New Member
United States
30 Posts |
I bought this coin at not much more than the gold value. It weighs 33.4 grams and is 34 mm wide, so the composition seems to be correct. But I don't know if this is really a proof coin or not because it shows signs of wear. Any help in confirming its authenticity is appreciated. Is it worth the expense to send it to a coin grading company? Here is a link to the photos of the coin: http://rayeena.smugmug.com/Hobbies/...69&k=P2nhhQb |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Interesting. You've obviously done your homework, so you know what you're possibly looking at - one of the great rarities of gold coinage. Its' essential features seem appropriate for such a coin, and I'm going to guess you're aware that three are already known having seen circulation. If it's a fake, it's a very, very good one. The more likely explanation is that the mint mark has been removed; the softness of gold would make this a much easier proposition than on a coin of harder metal. As good as your images are, they'll still not reveal such removal because if done carefully the soft surface can easily be polished and then weathered to hide the work. This will be discussed here; I can't stop that.  But what you need to do is get this into the hands of a genuine expert on the series. Nothing else short of submitting to a professional grading service - or finding a true expert in the field - will do. I am not one of those experts, not by half. There may be perhaps a member here who can see some obvious problem which I cannot. Could you reveal your general location? There may be someone in your area we know of who has the expertise to examine the coin and come to a conclusion before we discuss sending it in to PCGS, NGC or ANACS. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3184 Posts |
it could be dipped, polished, whizzed, etc that could make it look shiny and like a proof. Send it to NGC or PCGS to make sure its even real
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
it could be dipped, polished, whizzed, etc that could make it look shiny and like a proof. None of that really matters. This is a Proof-only mintage, there were no Business Strikes, and fewer than 30 are thought to exist. If it's a genuine Philadelphia 1883 Double Eagle, it's probably a $40k coin as it looks. That's why I didn't bother mentioning the surfaces, aside that they may be deliberate to help mask the removal of the mint mark (1883-S is pretty common). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5830 Posts |
Did you purchased from a dealer or someone else? Any guaranteed? That would be a lot of $ for a coin like this!
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
If you join the ANA, you can submit to NGC without a yearly membership fee. If you don't want to join the ANA, you can submit to ANACS without a membership fee and their grading fees are the most reasonable. Your last option is to purchase an annual membership at PCGS and submit to them. PCGS is generally considered to be the top grading company, but ANACS or NGC are perfectly fine for authentication. |
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New Member
 United States
30 Posts |
Thank you all for the comments they've been very helpful.
If it is too good to be true........
And right now I am thinking under that assumption. After SuperDaves' comments I looked at where the mint mark is supposed to be located a lot more carefully. I can see very slight distortions to the surface in that area, which could be just through normal use or the result of removal of the mint mark. So I am going to follow Susanlynn's advice and pick the cheapest option and have it graded. Worst case scenario I will be losing $250 plus the cost of appraisal, but on the bright side, it would be a good lesson one way or the other. I will post the result here when I get the coin back. Thanks again.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3253 Posts |
Might not some or all of these grading companies send back this coin as ungradable, without a word as to what the problem actually is? (i.e., counterfeit vs removed mintmark vs altered date, etc.)
Edited by philadelphian
11/18/2012 1:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
The 20 bucks to send it to ANACS is worth it beyond a doubt. Send it in.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
ANACS may put it in a details holder if it has been tooled. I am not sure how they handle removed mint marked coins but even if they do not slab the coin you will know it isn't like it is supposed to be and if its fake they will say questionable authenticity, if its tooled they will say that, if the MM has been removed they should say that as well I would believe
Edit: after thinking about it a little they probably will not slab a removed MM coin but they will still give an explanation on why it wasn't slabbed. So the only thing they wouldn't slab would be fake coin and removed MM probably (and not sure about the removed MM thing, but know they will not slab a fake but do give explanation of why it isn't holdered)
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
Might not some or all of these grading companies send back this coin as ungradable, without a word as to what the problem actually is? (i.e., counterfeit vs removed mintmark vs altered date, etc.) Yes, possibly. PCGS' Details code "90" covers both counterfeits and altered date/mint mark, so that numeric designation may be the only thing the submitter gets. In this case, that could be a $1600 swing in value, as an altered mint mark would still retain the gold bullion value while an off-metal fake would retain nothing. NGC's description of the same makes me think they will inform the submitter of the exact reason (.pdf link): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...C4QFjAA&url=http://www.ngccoin.com/pdf/details_grading_brochure.pdf&ei=LTmpUIjBLJGF0QHB9YHoCQ&usg=AFQjCNEL8gdKDNp3-fkd-4vCkToBGI2JTw&cad=rja ANACS I'm unsure of; their website is insufficiently clear on the subject. They are, however, the most approachable of the three major TPG's, and most likely to be willing to talk on the phone about the coin. Judging from ray123's pics and measurements, I'm guessing this is an actual Double Eagle, whether the mint mark has been altered or not. The detail is just_too_nice and the dimensions are spot-on. Yes, I understand that this could be achieved with an off-metal counterfeit, but if so, it's of such quality that it would have value to the world of numismatics just to be known. If it's an altered mint mark, it still has the intrinsic value of its' gold, which is over $1600 and the OP can recover most of the investment. My working theory remains that it's a genuine coin with an altered mint mark. An 1883-S needs to be better than MS61 to have any added value to speak of, so a slightly-circulated coin would be a very tempting piece for the morally-challenged to try to alter. |
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Moderator
United States
16679 Posts |
If it's a removed mintmark, it's a very good job. I see wear, in the upper end AU range. If it's a proof, you have a very rare coin. After examining your photos, it appears to be an 1883-S biz strike with a removed mintmark. Of course, I could be wrong. This has to be examined by a reputable TPG. It also appears to have been wiped in the past ...at least it looks that way from the photos. swcoin.ecrater.com
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5854 Posts |
The coin has definitely been cleaned even if it is a cleaned proof, it would still be of significant value. One thing I notice in the halos around the stars, design, hair, and date is the luster resembles a business strike much more than a proof. Another thing I notice is the rounded rims which is more characteristic of a business strike than the sharp rims that you usually see on a proof. In all, I am doubtful it is a genuine 1883 proof $20 though it still could be genuine coin made at a mint other than Philly.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3345 Posts |
I would say its a business strike with the mm removed. I would NOT bet on this though  my reason for saying this is that the surfaces do not seem proof. I have found many proof coins while roll hunting that have been in circulation for decades and you have to really look hard to discern if it is a proof. I once found a 1957 proof nickel with just the fine detail to tell it was a proof. and using what I have looked for on other proof coins, I just dont see this one having the same characteristics. but I say submit it for grading to make sure |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
Ray123, please be sure to keep us updated on this coin. Also, if you are sending it to ANACS, don't be shy. They are willing to talk on the phone. I disagreed with a grade on a coin, called and spoke directly to James Taylor, who was the CEO at the time, and got it regraded. He then explained to me why they reached the grade they did and, after that, I agreed with him. You may not be able to speak to the CEO, but they are very approachable, or at least they were a few years ago. I send almost all of my coins to PCGS these days.
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New Member
United States
30 Posts |
I will. I sent it to ANACS yesterday using their 5 day service. So I am guessing late next week I will be getting the coin back.
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Replies: 21 / Views: 3,296 |
Posted 11/18/2012 04:16 am
