Lion Thaler & Jochimsthalerguilden Groschen: A Question?

For anyone wanting to compare for themselves:

Early joachimsthaler, c. 1520, on British Museum website

Dutch leeuwendaalder, 1585, on Dutch Wikipedia.

The two main similarities I see are: the lion-in-circle on one side, and the standing figure holding a shield on the reverse.

There are plenty of differences, of course: for one, "obverse" and "reverse" are swapped around; the lion is on the obverse of the joachimsthaler, but the reverse of the leeuwendaalder. The lion on the joachimsthaler is the Bohemian lion, with two tails. And the standing figures are different in nature: one is a haloed saint (St Joachim) while the other is an armoured soldier. But I do agree that the designs are at least at-first-glance similar, and I agree that this was intentional on the part of the Dutch.

The Dutch copying the lion was, at least in part, a coincidence - this splayed-out appearance is the standard formulaic depiction of a heraldic lion, and both Bohemia and the Netherlands (particularly Brabant) had used a heraldic lion long before the invention of the thaler-sized coinage in either place. However, by the formation of the Dutch Republic, the Dutch lion had formally acquired additional attributes: a sword and clutch of arrows, which the leeuwendaalders omitted.

The Low Countries had a long history of issuing local coins that superficially resembled the well-accepted trade coinage of their neighbours, in the hope that their less-fine silver coins might be accepted at par by unwary merchants. "Esterlings" were debased-silver Dutch copies of English pennies. And the leeuwendaalder was a debased-silver Dutch counterpart to the joachimsthaler.



The British called them "dog dollars", partly because the lion resembles a dog more than any other animal you're likely to encounter in Britain, partly because mistakenly accepting a leeuwendaalder in trade at "full face value" for a thaler usually left the merchant cursing and muttering at the rotten scoundrel that gave it to them.

It was a common practice since ever, here is another example, first coin is King of England Aethelred II.
second coin is Bohemian Boleslav II.

My knowledge is not in depth so hopefully some one can expand:

The Jochimsthaler Guildengroschen was produced by the Schlick Family from their silver mine in Jochimsthal ( St Jochims Valley). People focus on just the first few years but The last Thaler produced by the Schlick family was in 1767 (Although minted in Prague)

This is my first time to see a 1575 Lionthaler. Thank you turtleoverhead. Many people suppose that 1576 was the first year of issue because there are still many Lionthaler 1576 for sale in ebay. Like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1576-Nether...em19d70d7d0f

Valuable comments from austrokiwi that more people need to be noted so we join the force to avoid counterfeits.

sorry I jump in so late in this discussion; I read this tread only today

the link to BM no longer works
below are images of two prototypes:
1525 the first taler sized silver coin ever; the Joachimstaler
1575 the first taler sized silver coin of the early days of the Dutch revolt against Spain






although the rampant lion is a common image (used in countless other coins, there is a thread about this topic) what is symbolized on these coins could not be more different

the Joachimstaler combines on the OBV a late medieval symbol :the local saint (Sanctus Ioachim => letters S I) and on the REV text that connect to the local ruler, the king og Bohemia (LVDOVICVS PRIM(vs) D(ei): GRACIA REX BO(hemiae)

the Leeuwendaalder is a revolutionary coin symbolizing the growing independence of the United States (provinces) of The Netherlands. No image or mention of the king (officially Phillip II of Spain ruled still over the 17 provinces of The Netherlands; just mention of the fact that this is a New Silver Coin of the States of Holland (Moneta Nova Argentea Ordinum Hollandiae).
One reason for the Dutch revolt was religious freedom, the protestants were prosecuted for decades before the revolt started. The text on the REV side refers to this religious principle (Confidens Domino Non Movetur): translated it means something like 'IN GOD WE TRUST" a text that comes back in on coins that are the result of other famous revolutions.

In summary: the two talers share only a few issues (taler-sized silver coin and rampant lion) but are fundamentally different:
the Joachimstaler refers to the local saint and local king, something that was prevalent in Europe for a long time
the Leeuwendaalder is a revolutionary coin meant to provoke the enemy and inspire (also support financially) the early days of the revolt