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 Replies: 21 / Views: 3,950 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
684 Posts |
I was over at a coin collecting buddy's house the other day and the conversation turned to fake coins coming out of China.
His inference was that "Chinese fakes" is prejustice. Counterfeits and forgeries come from all over the world. Heck I think Mark Harman is still in jail in the US.
Is there any factual evidence which shows that a lot of fakes come from China?
I do not have an agenda here. Just want to know if China is the source.
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Moderator
 Australia
16837 Posts |
Without a doubt, there are fake coin factories in China that rival a small mint in scale. Here's the old thread with pics from the "factory floor". While China is certainly not the only source of fake coins, it is almost certainly currently the largest source. It's a case of prejudice being reinforced because it's correct 99% of the time. There are also certain stylistic mistakes the cheaper Chinese-derived coins often have, such as wrong dates, spelling errors and impossible mules. Such coins have been sold on the streets of China for decades, long before the fake-masters discovered the power of the Internet. This is of course true for "modern" coins and for Chinese coins. For ancient and mediaeval coins, Eastern Europe is still the prime source of fakes. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
1064 Posts |
I went looking for a coin shop in Wenzhou using the internet. I found a shop that openly sells fakes.
For the Chinese a fake is not a fake in the western sense. They have the view that if they can't afford to buy an original, then a reproduction is almost as good.
But yeah, if I go to the antiques market here in Xi'an there are loads of "coins" and most of them are fake, clearly, and I know nothing about fakes.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
I agree with SAP. They are predominatly die cast transfer process type pieces which are easy to spot and are of a high quality. I reported also by XRF analysis the major alloys. The EDGE always gives them away ... no matter what ... you can't fake a 100 year old edge ... I collect and specialize in world contemporary counterfeits and have performed many surface analyses ... these China fakes from actual photos are very predominant in the mix of coins I weed through to buy genuine contemporary pieces of the period ... on E-Bay and other sources ...
John Lorenzo
United States
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1054 Posts |
Another such tell tale sign is the font usage, often times on counterfeit examples, the date design and lettering is so crudely done. A typestyles, especially in earlier coinage, in some ways is like a fingerprint, unique in every way.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
As has already been stated, China is by far the primary source but you will also see counterfeits from other Southeast Asia countries and even Eastern Europe(primary source for fake ancients but also other counterfeits). The Middle East was known for producing counterfeit US classic gold coins in the 1950s/60s as tourist copies but the majority of them had a gold content that was reasonably close to being accurate. These gold "coins" were a way to bypass US laws concerning the possession of gold coins as classic gold could still be owned and repatriated. Of course, there would also be occasional design discrepancies that would reveal their origins. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
648 Posts |
Chinese counterfeits do seem to dominate the available (on the web) coins by a very wide margin. Very high quality non magnetic proper weight coins.
--Westwood Arms- Were you referring to Francis L. Henning's nickel?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
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For the Chinese a fake is not a fake in the western sense...a reproduction is almost as good. Interesting because I'd like to hear all perspectives on this issue. While the above may be true, it's also true that people are refining their 'copying' simply to profit from passing their work off as real--for huge margins. Now, I don't begrudge the Chinese for their entrepreneurial success, but this is becoming a free-for-all needing better regulation, or our hobby will suffer immensely. Take for instance the "obscure" coins I collect from 17-19C. Scandinavia, where good fakes are flooding the market that even fool collectors in their respective countries. And, I've been told by veteran stamp dealers that forgeries have eroded collector confidence, subsequent demand, and value. I'd hate for that to happen to coins, but it may be inevitable with the onslaught of fake coins and even fake slabs.  Edited by DVCollector
01/23/2013 5:18 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts |
Making "replicas" for collectors has been being done for centuries in China. There have been cast replicas of Yuan Dyn. cash for at least six hundred years made specifically for collectors. What is different now is that the fakes coing out fo China are just so cheap to produce that they are flooding the market. You can go to Alibaba and search "coin" and you will have literally hundreds of manufacturers all over Chian quoting less than 60 cents per coin for replicas. They are usually csat (sand cast or spin cast) because it is cheaper than preparing dies. But die struck also comes from China as well. The same places that are maing tokens are making copies of coins by the same processes.
Bulgaria (i.e. Lipanoff Studio) has been churning out high quality struck copies of ancients for years too. They bedevil the ancients market. And who can forget the "Omega" counterfeits?
Making copies of legitimate coins in the same alloy has also been being done for centuries to just as convenience. It said that yes this piece of metal was the same weight and fitness as the original.
The incentive to make a 30 cent fake roman AE4 and stick it in a bunch of uncleaned coins and resell it for $2 is pretty strong when you're repeating the sale hundreds of times.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts |
To toss in my own experience, most of the fakes found "in the wild" that are submitted to The Black Cabinet are of Chinese origin, and they are *prolific*.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
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There have been cast replicas of Yuan Dyn. cash for at least six hundred years made specifically for collectors. Have the Chinese been collecting coins for 600+ years? That's interesting. I also wonder, with so many foreign silver "trade coins" used in commerce in the region, there must be incentive to pass off copies as the real thing--not for collecting, but as money? So I suspect this is where it all began--there was no central authority determining authenticity of coins in trade, except the merchants themselves. As in all situations, the profit incentive is greater than all else. If there's a distinction that bears repeating--fakes made in Bulgaria or anywhere are not usually sold as "collector copies". If they're done well enough, they're sold as the real thing--simply for reasons of maximum profit. We know this is all about money, don't we?  Sorry for the  |
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Moderator
Australia
16837 Posts |
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Have the Chinese been collecting coins for 600+ years? That's interesting. While historians can argue about whether the Chinese or the Greeks "invented coinage" first, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Chinese "invented coin collecting" first, in the form we would recognise it today. The oldest coin catalogues in the world are Chinese, written on traditional bamboo scrolls. If I recall correctly, the oldest intact scrolls date from the 1100s but they quote from earlier works (now lost to us) dating from the 500s AD. Quote:
I also wonder, with so many foreign silver "trade coins" used in commerce in the region, there must be incentive to pass off copies as the real thing--not for collecting, but as money? So I suspect this is where it all began--there was no central authority determining authenticity of coins in trade, except the merchants themselves. That's why "chop marks" were invented. Punching a deep countermark into a coin not only tested the coin to inform the merchant whether or not they had a silver-washed base-metal fake, but it also became a guarantee for subsequent users of the coin: "I, Li Quan Yi, have tested this coin and found it to be of good silver". Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
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The oldest coin catalogues in the world are Chinese, written on traditional bamboo scrolls. If I recall correctly, the oldest intact scrolls date from the 1100s but they quote from earlier works (now lost to us) dating from the 500s AD. Incredible - thanks for posting! As far as ancients go the fakes used to come from Bulgaria, many still do but as mentioned above the Chinese are now also pumping them out at worrying rates  Edited by bobbyhelmet
01/24/2013 6:20 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts |
I happened to be looking at some Yuan cash the other day. The copies are so old that you just can't tell the real from the fake sometimes but they're hundreds of years old. Mitchiner has a page on it in World of Islam.
In Russia there have been novodels struck by the mint since the late 1700's. Novodels are either later restrikes using the same dies or reproductions for collectors.
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New Member
Portugal
47 Posts |
Posted Yesterday 1:09 pm As has already been stated, China is by far the primary source but you will also see counterfeits from other Southeast Asia countries and even Eastern Europe(primary source for fake ancients but also other counterfeits). The Middle East was known for producing counterfeit US classic gold coins in the 1950s/60s as tourist copies but the majority of them had a gold content that was reasonably close to being accurate. These gold "coins" were a way to bypass US laws concerning the possession of gold coins as classic gold could still be owned and repatriated. Of course, there would also be occasional design discrepancies that would reveal their origins. ANA R-3151318 What do you mean biokemist6 with saying "Of course, there would also be occasional design discrepancies that would reveal their origins." and linking to that topic |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
What I meant is already laid out in your thread regarding your gold dollar. The consensus was that you have a full gold weight counterfeit with an impossible design pairing, quite possibly of Middle East origin circa mid-20th century.
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Replies: 21 / Views: 3,950 |
Posted 01/23/2013 08:38 am
