4 Reales 1811 Ioseph Napoleon Weight Problem

So if I am understanding you correctly the Spanish continental issues contained the correct amount of silver packaged in a heavier coin but that the equivalency in terms of actual silver content was maintained between Vellon and Plata Fuerte systems?

I have no reason to doubt what you say at all. Especially about Krause and shortcuts being taken. However, in this case, it seems to me that this just ends up requiring the Continental coins to use a different assay of silver than they received from the colonies.

They could not melt colonial silver coins and re-strike them as continental issues. They had to melt adjust and recoin.

The extra work and cost of adding extra copper then making the coins heavier to produce an end result containing the identical quantity of silver anyway seems to be wasteful and gains the crown absolutely nothing. In fact the crown spends extra money to make the same face value in coins.

Or am I somehow missing something in this transaction?

Or were the Vellon coins produced in a much lower assay allowing the crown to make a profit at the expense of the people?

I did some quick math. If we presume that the silver content in the 4RV was 1/5th the Duro (8RPF) that means that the 4RV contains 0.7859 oz Ag x 1/5 = .1572 oz Ag or 4.89 grams of pure silver or 4.89/6.0 = 814 fine silver.

But unless they altered the ratio or fineness someplace along the line - the 20RV would have to weigh 5 x 6.0g or 30 grams. Which it did not. The 20RV was equal to the 8RPF in weight at about 27 grams.

I also checked in with Eckfeld. Under Spain on page 122 are some very interesting figures, First they provide the average weight and fineness of coins assayed by the US mint in the years prior to 1842.

The Dollar coin of Spain was always within a couple cents of being correct. The most serious deviation was for the Spanish-American coins of Mexico during the revolution and that was only 5 cents per dollar coin.

So all dollars were roughly 900 fine and weighed 37 grams or there abouts. The dollar was 8 Reales Plata Fuerte or 20 Reales Vellon. The 4 Reales vellon was called the Pistereen or Peseta.

Specific averages by type are provided. The Spanish dollars tested at Philadelphis resulted in:

Charles III and IV 1772 to 1808 900 fine 412 grains
Ferdinand VII 1808 to 1821 900 fine 414 grains
Joseph Napolean 1809-1813 900 fine 415 grains

No Spanish dollars tested after 1821 - non circulating in the US.

The Spanish American dollars ran a range of 897 to 903 fine and a weight of 413 grains average.

So for dollars there is no difference.

The Pistareen is different.

1707 to 1712 83.6 grains 11 dineros or 917 fine
1715 to 1771 92.3 grains 10 dineros or 833 fine
1772 on "head" 92.3 grains 9.75 dineros or 813 fine.

There are 480 grains per troy ounce so the head pistereen (4 reales of vellon) of Spain (not the Spanish American 2R) weighed .1923 troy ounces or 5.98 grams.

Problem solved by the Philadelphia mint in 1842. The 4 reales of vellon weighed 5.98 grams and used .813 fine silver. It was not equivalent to any Plata fuerte denomination.

After 2 hours of reading and checking math and getting really confused by terms I think I understand.

So given the revised weight standard the coins may be fine after all. They are about the right weight. If you can do SG they should test 10.15 not 10.3.

Also, regarding the pistareen weights...

1707 to 1712 83.6 grains 11 dineros or 917 fine
1715 to 1771 92.3 grains 10 dineros or 833 fine
1772 on "head" 92.3 grains 9.75 dineros or 813 fine.

Keep in mind that especially for those late 1710s-early 1720s pieces that became so prevalent in the southeast, the weights you find for what by all accounts seem to be "genuine" pieces really seem to fluctuate... some near that prescribed 6.0 grams listed for 1715-up, but many a good bit lower (accounting for wear, obviously).

And of course there were plentiful counterfeits of those pieces as well...