4 Reales 1811 Ioseph Napoleon Weight Problem

Luis Barrera Coronado in his book "Catalogo General de la Moneda Falsa Espanola" lists 2 different versions of the 1811 4 Reales of Joseph Napoleon as existing. Unfortunately he does not show pictures or provide weights. But the AI assayer version he does refer to as "plata".

Therefore there is a known counterfeit in silver of that date. Is it yours?

The weight is a very bad sign. That coin is 6% too haavy and it is worn. So when new you would have to believe that it was 10-12 % heavy which is impossible.

I know a question of the correct weight has been raised. I am not 100% sure but if you do the math - the weight os a 4 reales multiplied by 2.5 equals the weight of a 10 reales exactly 13.54g and that multiplied by 2 matches the weight of a 20 reales. In other words the numbers work out.

The coin certainly looks very good. The die work is excellent and the wear seems original. You may have a contemporary forgery made sometime after 1830 or so. It is very likely worth more as a counterfeit than as an original.

What kind of edge design does the coin have?

I recall that other thread as well. I did not like the die work on that coin and it looked like a forgery - a modern one. I own several 20 Reales and they are all overweight. But they are modern.

Your 4 Reales looks far more like a period forgery to me.

SG would still tell a story if you have an accurate enough scale. XRF would do as well but the test costs more than an original in this grade.

I find OVERWEIGHT period forgeries like this to be very rare ... its XRF analysis would be interesting ... I have NO guess on its composition ... you make a good point Hong Kong ... it could be real as it appears to be of a silver alloy composition. Check some internet sales of this piece ... compare/report back the weights.

Here is scan of edge:




I paid for this coin 30$ with postage. What to do? Send coin back to seller or keep it? And sell later like contemporary counterfeit?

Thanks

30 USD with postage is a nice price (well, an OK price).
The edge looks good.
I'm always mixing weights on those, it's a real mess (with the "de vellon" series, and different denominations ...)

Look at this link:

http://www.ma-shops.co.uk/saenn/ite...&curr=USDEUR

This heavly circulated coin have weight 5.65. Interesting.

I am very interested in coins of this era, but I know that I am still a novice.
I think it is important to keep in mind that this is a Napoleonic issue, rather than a Loyalist.
Do we know if the Napoleonic mint was working to the same weights and standards as the previous regime ?

I still need some time to digest what all you are talking about such as De Vellon, de plat Fuerte and else. Now I show my two coins and its specifications here for comparison and discussion.

Coin 1 : 5.41 grams, 26.0mm diameter




Coin 2 : 5.77 grams, 25.9-26.0mm

So if I am understanding you correctly the Spanish continental issues contained the correct amount of silver packaged in a heavier coin but that the equivalency in terms of actual silver content was maintained between Vellon and Plata Fuerte systems?

I have no reason to doubt what you say at all. Especially about Krause and shortcuts being taken. However, in this case, it seems to me that this just ends up requiring the Continental coins to use a different assay of silver than they received from the colonies.

They could not melt colonial silver coins and re-strike them as continental issues. They had to melt adjust and recoin.

The extra work and cost of adding extra copper then making the coins heavier to produce an end result containing the identical quantity of silver anyway seems to be wasteful and gains the crown absolutely nothing. In fact the crown spends extra money to make the same face value in coins.

Or am I somehow missing something in this transaction?

Or were the Vellon coins produced in a much lower assay allowing the crown to make a profit at the expense of the people?

I did some quick math. If we presume that the silver content in the 4RV was 1/5th the Duro (8RPF) that means that the 4RV contains 0.7859 oz Ag x 1/5 = .1572 oz Ag or 4.89 grams of pure silver or 4.89/6.0 = 814 fine silver.

But unless they altered the ratio or fineness someplace along the line - the 20RV would have to weigh 5 x 6.0g or 30 grams. Which it did not. The 20RV was equal to the 8RPF in weight at about 27 grams.

I also checked in with Eckfeld. Under Spain on page 122 are some very interesting figures, First they provide the average weight and fineness of coins assayed by the US mint in the years prior to 1842.

The Dollar coin of Spain was always within a couple cents of being correct. The most serious deviation was for the Spanish-American coins of Mexico during the revolution and that was only 5 cents per dollar coin.

So all dollars were roughly 900 fine and weighed 27 grams or there abouts. The dollar was 8 Reales Plata Fuerte or 20 Reales Vellon. The 4 Reales vellon was called the Pistereen or Peseta.

Specific averages by type are provided. The Spanish dollars tested at Philadelphia resulted in:

Charles III and IV 1772 to 1808 900 fine 412 grains
Ferdinand VII 1808 to 1821 900 fine 414 grains
Joseph Napoleon 1809-1813 900 fine 415 grains

No Spanish dollars tested after 1821 - non circulating in the US.

The Spanish American dollars ran a range of 897 to 903 fine and a weight of 413 grains average.

So for dollars there is no difference.

The Pistareen is different.

1707 to 1712 83.6 grains 11 dineros or 917 fine
1715 to 1771 92.3 grains 10 dineros or 833 fine
1772 on "head" 92.3 grains 9.75 dineros or 813 fine.

There are 480 grains per troy ounce so the head pistereen (4 reales of vellon) of Spain (not the Spanish American 2R) weighed .1923 troy ounces or 5.98 grams.

Problem solved by the Philadelphia mint in 1842. The 4 reales of vellon weighed 5.98 grams and used .813 fine silver. It was not equivalent to any Plata fuerte denomination.

After 2 hours of reading and checking math and getting really confused by terms I think I understand.

So given the revised weight standard the coins may be fine after all. They are about the right weight. If you can do SG they should test 10.15 not 10.3.

So I answered my own questions the 814 and 813 finess are actually a good mathematical cross check.

It was ONLY the pistereen which was debased significantly. They were initially accepted at 20 cents each but that dropped over time and by 1842 they were no longer in use in the US,

So the only question I have is WHY?