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Replies: 28 / Views: 4,005 |
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Valued Member
Australia
216 Posts |
Thought it would be best to start a new thread for this rather than hijack the other one. As many of you might know CGT applies to all coins/notes valued at more than $500 at purchase. The comment was made by Sel, and it is totally valid, about policing of this by the ATO. Difficult to do but they will expect you to prove where and when they came into your possession. The reason I bring this up for discussion is that my cousin was audited by the ATO and because he did not have original receipts for the purchase of the coins he sold, he had to pay CGT on the total sale price not just the increased value. I thought this was a bit tough but it also applies to many who like myself inherited many coins from family. Just how do I prove where they came from.  So I open the floor to comment. (hoping for advice here on how to keep the Governments hands off my coins  ) Peter
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Valued Member
Australia
491 Posts |
A lot of unknown coins are in many kilo buys, that are under $500.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2180 Posts |
Quote:I thought this was a bit tough but it also applies to many who like myself inherited many coins from family. Just how do I prove where they came from. Given that that's a valid explanation, is there any way that the ATO can disprove it?
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts |
Did your brother tell them about the coins he sold? If so WHY?!
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Valued Member
Australia
491 Posts |
ebay & pay pal automatically hands over all your ebay sales details & pay pals account records to the ATO when you have earned over $20,000 in one financial year. So you have to earn over $75,000 before GST becomes an issue. So long as I do not sell a coin for over $500 profit I have no issues with CGT?
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts |
$20,000 is still 40 $500 coins. How else would they fiind out?
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Valued Member
Australia
491 Posts |
Interesting question enworb! Hope we get an answer. I really need to know! It is possible for ATO to employ a person to search ebay but there would have to be a lot of money involved for the job to pay for itself. But it that was the case this would be big news all over the place! I have been told that my computer can be taken by ATO at anytime especially if center link has a need. We confess our sins to center link every 3 months and I add they have been very nice about it all to us for some time now.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts |
They would need some sort of court order/warrant to take your computer without your consent. The point I am making is dont go advertising to everyone when you sell a $500+ coin that was in your collection, especially if you dont have the original receipt!
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Moderator
 Australia
16832 Posts |
Quote:I thought this was a bit tough but it also applies to many who like myself inherited many coins from family. Just how do I prove where they came from.
Given that that's a valid explanation, is there any way that the ATO can disprove it? Here's the ATO info page on CGT and inherited items. Quick summary: if the person from whom it came owned it prior to 1985, you need to obtain a valuation of the item as of their date of death (or the date they gave it to you); this will be deemed to be your "purchase price", even though you did not yourself pay that money. If they acquired it after 1985, then they should have kept CGT records of when and how much and any CGT you pay is based on what they paid for the item back when they bought it, just as if you had bought it yourself. If they didn't, well, too bad for you. Without records, money gained from sale of assets looks just like any other income: 100% of that income is taxable unless you can prove otherwise. So the moral of the story is, if you own valuable coins and want to minimize your tax (or the tax your heirs have to pay) when your coin collection or part thereof is sold off, keep records of how much you paid for things, and when you bought them. Fortunately for me, I own very few $500-plus items, and I've never tried to sell one off. I doubt I could lay my hands on original receipts for specific coins on demand, but I do have records: my coin database, in which I've recorded the price paid for most of the coins I've acquired since 1990 (I certainly didn't own any $500-plus coins prior to 1985). I have no idea if this kind of record-keeping would be good enough for tax purposes.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
 Australia
216 Posts |
Thanks, Sap. So basically because I don't have any documentation for mum's coins I should not sell them, ever. That's ok, I was not planning to anyway. Any coins I buy though, I have to document.
Good to know. Also makes getting a good archive package sorted a must rather than just a good idea.
Enworb, the ATO during the audit asked where the $7,500 deposit came from in his bank statements. It was on him, not the ATO to prove the source of the money. FYI 23 half penny.
Edited by Peter S Thomas 03/06/2013 5:42 pm
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Valued Member
Australia
312 Posts |
The best way of selling of your valuable coins is to sell them to a deal with cash trade, the good side is no one knows, the bad side is you do not get what you expected.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts |
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Valued Member
United States
77 Posts |
Ditto for the "Cash is King" comment. :-)
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2830 Posts |
quote: "Given that that's a valid explanation, is there any way that the ATO can disprove it?" - we are not talking about a judicial finding of fact. ATO is not limited by the rules of evidence. ATO don't have to disprove anything: they form a view, based on the matters that they are satisfied of, and then assess your tax, based on that view. If a taxpayer wants to alter this assessment, then it's upto the taxpayer to satisfy ATO.
quote: "They would need some sort of court order/warrant to take your computer without your consent." - think again !
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
As a direct result of the introduction of CGT, I have avoided buying coins of more than $500 in value. I would have over 100 coins that would be valued at more than $100, but a lot less than $500. Almost all of these would have been acquired as single items, over a period of decades.
So how will I dispose of them all, near the end of my life? Simple. I HAVE BEEN already giving my coins in dribs and drabs to my kids over recent years. They can keep them, or sell them as single items, as they so wish. I have done the same thing with cars and furniture.
So where do you stand when you sell your collection out of yor estate? That problem does not arise for me. I have been in the process of actioning my Last Will and Testament in small bits and pieces for some years.
My daughter still puts her arms around my neck, hugs me and says: "I love you dad!". At least, I know the reason why.
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Valued Member
Australia
491 Posts |
This is the saddest collectable tax issue I have come across.
On the other side! Your collection is not an asset!
Half of what we sell goes back into replacing our collection and this money does not become income. We declare everything to center link. Totally openly!
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Replies: 28 / Views: 4,005 |