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 Replies: 21 / Views: 4,561 |
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Hello Everyone, I reside in Canada and am new to this forum. A while back I read a thread on a gent who had come across 2 , 4 oz Engelhard bars. Many people on the forum believe the inflated price is all hype. Now I can understand that but sometimes things stay hot for sometime.... The thing is I recently acquired an early Engelhard 4oz poured with no plus behind the 999 stamp ( which apparently makes is very early ) On top of that it is still in it's original plastic wrap with a $10 price tag from the Woodward's Department store that used to be a retail staple of Vancouver and had a coin shop until the 1980's. To top all of this off the serial number is #00004. I am looking for any info that might be available on the significance of this and or the value. Thanks everyone!! Happy hunting.  Edited by Gofindtreasure
04/09/2013 01:08 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
834 Posts |
Is the 4.000, .999 and serial below the Engelhard logo? If so, you have a first press version of this bar. Made in 1972-1978 . You can expect anywhere from 1500$-4000$ for this bar. Three of this version we're on ebay last year, and a few of the other versions also sold in that range. Just like JM collectors, engelhard collectors want every version. If I didnt already have one in my collection I would be a buyer on this bar. If you need any help locating a buyer outside of ebay, I deal with many collectors of engelhard bars and can lead you into the right direction. |
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New Member
 Canada
37 Posts |
It is strange because the 999 and 4.000 are above the Engelhard logo , but none of the 4 oz with centered logo have no plus from what I could find .
And the 4.000 and 999 are on opposite sides from the normal placement of the later bars.
I will try to upload a photo.
Thanks
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4541 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
834 Posts |
Please upload a photo, once I see what one it is I can give you better information about the bar.
Sounds like you have an earlier pressing of the third press of these bars, based on the location and the fact it has 5 digits in the serial number.
This pressing later turned into the bull logo pressing.
Keep in mind the lack of the + could make it a error mis-strike, as engelhard had horrible quality control in the 70's and 80's
If you can post some of the top, back and how thick it is.
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Valued Member
Canada
281 Posts |
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
It seems to me that by the retail price of $10,
this bar has to be from 1975 or earlier.
Below is a quote from the Silver Institute on silver in the early 1970's
"The average price of silver was $1.55 in 1971. The average price rose to $4.71 in 1974, and then spent the next four years between $4.35 and $5.40."
But the centered Engelhard logo is not in the same place as the other early bars.
Is this an anomaly bar or maybe the very first had a centered logo , then went to above the 4.000 and 999
then back to centered?
I saw the about.ag page on odd size Engelhard and this is just different in some specific areas like the local of the 999 and 4.000 combined with the no plus
Thank you all so far
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
834 Posts |
I'd love to see some close up pictures.
Something is just not sitting right, in my opinion.
Looks like the fake 2,3 and 5oz bars we are coming across in Toronto lately coming from out west.
Someone has been melting down generic silver and making these Engelhard bars, which appeal to collectors
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
I know that this matches later pressings in layout(like the third pressing.)
But the price of $10 retail definitely puts it pre 1974(first run of 4oz bars) as Woodwards was a well run National Brand store and only sold such things at a profit for themselves.
Meaning that silver had to be below $2.50 per oz at the time....meaning 1974 and earlier.
Could I possibly have proven that the other three examples of first pressings are not the first layout ,
but that engelhard changed the layout early , say after the first 10-100 bars...
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
834 Posts |
Dont pay attention to the price tag, for all you know someone just wrote that on at anytime. Ink doesn't look to faded to me.
Engelhard bars in that size never came in bags, only a very few sizes of bars did and they we're almost in a shrink wrap type bag.
I'd be interested in up close pictures of the 999 and the 4 in 4.000 as well as a clear picture of the serial number and back of the bar.
Some things are sticking out as huge red flags to me, making me think this may be a copy fake that have been popping up around here.
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
I can assure you that this is not a fake Engelhard bar.
I am no expert but it slipped in to a local coin shop
( The owner of above mentioned shop used to own the shop that operated in the Hudson's bay Company coin department)
There is an auction at the shop every Saturday and it is in a very OLD MONEY neighborhood of Vancouver.
With many wealthy old residents.
On top of all that , who in their right mind is going to fake a silver bar and put it in a package from a store that closed 20+ years ago , I mean come on , they faked a Woodwards sticker too?!?
NO
This is the real deal.
It weighs 126.4 grams in the Plastic
which is exactly what it should be allowing 1-2g for the plastic as it is thick and old.
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
First of all The price tag is actually very important. If you don't understand art and history , this is called provenance , and it is extremely important. I never said that Engelhard Bagged it but Woodwards clearly did. their coin shop was well known as was the Bay's here in Vancouver. I have busted fake coins before so I am no fool. The weight is correct , the price for the timeline is correct for the first pressing. and if you notice in the first pressings , one of the nines in 999 is sitting high , well guess what.... One of my nines is sitting high. Little details that create a clear picture. Now I can understand your being skeptical and all considering how valuable this could be provided it is real. Do you really think someone would fake a bar with a 4 for a serial Number? I think that might just draw a heck of a lot of attention to the bar , getting that person caught as a result. I believe this is from the first 10 4 oz bars produced by Engelhard , given the high 9 , the price tag , and the no plus. All three point to early. I will upload more pics later tonight , but I will not be removing it from the plastic as it is sealed and will stay that way. I bought the bar from All Nations Coin and Stamps (Formerly of the Hudson's Bay Company) here in Vancouver at their local weekly auction. A very reputable store with a long city history and a people you can trust. And so you know It was estimated for auction at $150 , just over the value of silver bullion. No one there knew what was sitting in front of them but me. And I bought it  for $340! It was not advertised as a rare bar as it was not thought to be. Counterfeits often try to sell rare fakes as the rare originals , this was not the case at this auction. It just sold as 4 old oz of AG Secondly , pen ink from the 1970's would not have faded in such a short time had it been in a drawer or safe and not exposed to light , moisture or the elements. Thanks My apologies if I ramble , but I want to get all of the facts out on the table about the bar. Edited by Gofindtreasure
04/09/2013 01:13 am
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
here is an up close photo  |
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
A big factor for me here , Is that no one can show me a bar with a serial number below the low 200s
So how can you know , without a legitimate example of a one digit serial Number
what they looked like......
Can anyone provide me with photo references of this bar being faked with a very low serial number and packaged in a Woodwards bag?
If you can I will say shame on me and feel quite stupid.
Soooo.....
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New Member
Canada
37 Posts |
Specs on the bar
126.4 g in the bag
Bar is slightly wider on top than bottom ( like a loaf of bread )
Top measures 1 and 9/16" x 15/16"
Measures 7/16" tall from bottom to top edge though bar gets higher as it rounds the top past the edge.
Bottom measures 1 and 7/16' x 13/16"
No magnetic
I will be having the bar put through an X ray later this week
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Pillar of the Community
1283 Posts |
Looks real to me and if your story is legit it is almost like finding a lotto ticket. I would personally sell it as quick as possible transforming it into bulk silver/gold weight.
I just can't understand why someone would give that kind of money for 4 ounces of .999.
Congrats
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Replies: 21 / Views: 4,561 |
Posted 04/08/2013 11:16 pm
