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Ethics Question

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Gazot's Avatar
United States
165 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  10:16 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Gazot to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
If this has already been debated here I apologize but I found it an interesting read and a tough question to answer. I have changed my mind three times.....



Taken From Numismatic News

The scenario for this week's Coin Dealer Ethics question was originally published in Numismatic News in mid-January. Ever since then, the scenario has been debated in the News' Letters to the Editor section virtually every week, with many weeks having several letters about this interesting situation. I thought that my readers might enjoy discussing it, too, since it seems to resonate with lots of people. You can read the entire original article about the overlooked 1893-S Morgan dollar, but I'll distill the essential facts, as I see them, here.

In 2005, Dave Lembke bought a few small piles of Morgan dollars from his local coin dealer for $7 to $9 each, a price that was just a little over the silver value of the coins at the time. He took the Morgans home and stashed them in his safe until he had time to check them for VAMs. (VAMs are popular Morgan dollar die varieties.) On December 24, 2005, Dave had some time to look at the Morgans, and was amazed to discover that one of them was a rare and valuable 1893-S.

He took the coin to the dealer he bought it from for $7, asking the dealer how much he would pay for it. In Dave's account, he admits that he didn't want to tell the dealer that the coin had been sold by him for $7, because he didn't want to make the dealer "hang himself." The dealer offered $2,100 for the 1893-S Morgan if it was certified as being genuine.

Dave sent the coin in for grading, and it came back graded "VF Details Net F-15" (which means the coin had some surface damage that prevented it from attaining a full, unqualified VF grade, in this case a minor surface scratch and some edge dings.) The important news was that the rare 1893-S Morgan dollar was genuine.

Although he held onto the coin for awhile, Dave eventually sold it to buy his wife a better car. He took it to a second coin dealer to get another offer, and the dealer agreed to pay Dave $3,150 for the coin, which Dave accepted.

The bottom line is that Dave turned a $7 investment into a $3,150 sale, primarily because the dealer who sold the coin had overlooked it when he sold it.

Numismatic News readers have brought up a number of points while discussing this little adventure. Some readers took Dave to task for not being honest with the first dealer. They thought he should have taken the coin back and admitted that it was in the batch, since no dealer in his right mind would have sold an 1893-S Morgan for $7. Other readers were more annoyed at Dave for not wanting to tell the dealer where he got the coin, considering this to be a form of lying. At least one person thought it was wrong to offer the coin for sale back to the same dealer he got it from under these circumstances.

Taking the other side of things, a couple of readers felt that Dave had done nothing wrong at all; the dealer should have known what he was selling. Some readers even thought the first dealer was a crook, offering more than $1,000 less than others would pay for the coin, so he deserved what he got by selling the $7 Morgan.

Interestingly, among the Numismatic News readers who took the time to write a Letter to the Editor, most of them believed that Dave was in the wrong for one reason or another.

What do you think? Should Dave have fessed up and returned the coin? Or was it the dealer's loss for not checking his junk silver more carefully before selling it? [/font=Verdana]
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BamaBlue's Avatar
United States
624 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  10:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BamaBlue to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Once the coin was sold, it belonged to Dave. As the legal owner he has the right to do what he did.
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chris12018's Avatar
United States
2130 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  10:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris12018 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe the dealer shorted himself. Due to the fact that he (the dealer) should of paid more attention to what he was selling. Dave bought in bulk and found a key date (some time later). I don't think this is any different than buying a unsearched roll of coin from the same dealer & finding a 1909 s VDB.

"Education is the key to collector success!"

Edited by chris12018
04/21/2013 10:45 am
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amida17's Avatar
United States
4897 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  10:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Caveat venditor. All fault on the dealer IMO.
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Bacchus2's Avatar
United Kingdom
2868 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The dealer made the error. It was Dave's knowledge that earned him the reward = one the dealer could easily have had if he had bothered.
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kena's Avatar
United Kingdom
1682 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kena to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is the full article. http://www.numismaticnews.net/artic...r_family_car

While I on the surface, I don't think the buyer did anything wrong, there are a few parts of the story which bother me.

"I went to a coin dealer who I used to visit just about weekly to buy anywhere from $40 to $120 in coins." - sounds like he no longer visits that dealer

Does not say how closely both he and the dealer looked at coins when the purchase was made (£7 to $9) means around 25 coins. If it was a simple case, I will take all 3 stacks without looking at them, then he did nothing wrong.

"I ended up going back to the dealer and I couldn't tell him that I got the coin there because it would have made him want to hang himself that he overlooked the coin. I ended up telling him that the coin was given to me by my grandfather with a bunch of other coins." This sounds a bit wrong to me, making up a white lie.

Ken

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IowaHawkeye's Avatar
United States
72 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  10:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IowaHawkeye to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The dealer priced the Morgan, Dave bought it, end of story.

Would be different in my mind if Dave bought the coin from someone who had no knowledge of coin values.
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allranger's Avatar
United States
1391 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  11:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add allranger to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If he pulled the coin out from under the cases while the dealer had his back turned and then slipped in in the middle of the stack, then that is wrong. If the dealer couldn't be bothered to check his inventory then that is the dealers fault.
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mysilveryears's Avatar
United States
1888 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  11:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mysilveryears to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm with the nearly unanimous voting of 'dealer's fault' on this one.
Full disclosure: A very similar thing happened to me, although not on the same value scale. I bought a small batch of Morgans from a bullion dealer's low-end pile, one of which was a very decent circulated CC. The dealer overlooked it, and I still buy from him on a regular basis. I do believe the next guy in line would have done the same thing. It seems to me that it is incumbent upon sellers to *pay attention* to what they are selling. No one was harmed by this action; no ropes or torture devices were involved, and all parties are still on friendly terms.
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Doug58s's Avatar
United States
899 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Doug58s to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to agree with the others. The dealer had a couple of options before he sold the coins to Dave. He could have sold him coins he had already verified through his own inventory process as being average Morgans that contained no high end coins. He could have also verified visually when he handed them to Dave that the coins were average Morgan dollars. Instead he slid a pill of coins across the counter and sold them as average coins. I don't see that Dave did anything wrong at all. While he may have discovered later he had a high value coin - the dealer had more than ample time to check his inventory - and when Dave returned the dealer never even knew he had sold the coin - which to me implies he never knew he even owned it to start with.

I don't see this as any different than going to a yard sell and buying a $2 painting and finding out later it is a priceless work of art. The owner that sold it to you could have done the same thing you did and they didn't - so are you now obligated to go share your windfall with them?
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Wade's Avatar
Canada
2781 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The dealer priced the Morgan, Dave bought it, end of story



ask yourself, how many dealers would refund you, months later, if you overpaid for a coin?
Edited by Wade
04/21/2013 12:19 pm
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macmercury's Avatar
United States
5822 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  12:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This sort of things happen enough with not just only coins, knowledge is key and bargain hunters knows it too well.
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elfof4sky's Avatar
United States
64 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add elfof4sky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ethically it falls on the virtue of the buyer. Whatever the dealer did was his form of business. Is the buyer supposed to go back and ask the dealer if he overlooked his coin? That would be like asking to get robbed. The best thing to do is in conversation ask the dealer if he misplaced any coins in the last year. If the coin isn't lost then it's overlooked and free game for trade. The buyer isn't there to educate the dealer on his wares.
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Tim Stroud's Avatar
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion if it was priced at $7 and that what was paid that was the fault of the dealer. You ask yourself this, what did the dealer give for it? I bought a 1921 Peace dollar that would grade around VF20 about 5 years ago for $13.50. It was in a one of two big bags of Morgan/Peace $'s a dealer had at a show I went too. I sat down and spent about 2 1/2 hours going through those and picking out what I wanted at the time. When I came across it I asked the dealer again if everything in the bags were priced at $15 each, 10 or more $13.50 each and he said yes. So I bought 10 and one of them was the 21 Peace.
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Fat Freddy's Avatar
United States
1200 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fat Freddy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As said repeatedly above... the dealer sold the coin for his asking price--end of story--period. "Due diligence" isn't exclusively a buyer responsibility--it's also a
seller responsibility. A dealer is presumed and required to know better than to be asleep at the switch. If he fails to pay adequate attention to how he runs his
business, that problem in no way involves "the virtue" of the buyer. As asked above, how would the scenario likely go if you found you'd overpaid for a coin
and asked the LCS a few months later for a partial refund?
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GR58's Avatar
United States
11951 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2013  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From what information reads, the dealer did not know he had a 1893S Morgan. I am thinking he only paid for the coin as a common coin.

So the person who lost was who ever the dealer bought it from.

Dave was just lucky that he checked the coins, and did nothing wrong.

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