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 Replies: 19 / Views: 5,441 |
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Valued Member
United States
160 Posts |
I hate to keep hammering you with these questions, but I can't seem to find an answer on the web. I have this 1922 Penny and from what I've read it appears to be a Melbourne or Perth Mint, I see no other markings on it. The Renniks say 1922 M&P Minted coins are identicle, is that correct or do you see something else that points to the mint. The coin has an obverse lamination problem, and a fantastic die crack through the legend on the reverse.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts |
Firstly that is one heck of a die crack. Nice!
As far as I know they are exactly the same. There may be different obverse/reverse pairings which could be matched to mint records but even if the mint records are known then I dont know if someone has done the research before.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
674 Posts |
Great coin.! According to my Rennicks the Melbourne mint had a combination of Obverse/Reverse of L/B whilst the Perth minted coins have a combination of Obverse/Reverse of C/B.. L being London derived Dies, C being Calcutta (India) derived Dies.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
674 Posts |
To complicate things further Rennicks shows a Sydney Minted 1922 penny with a O/R of L/B, with the letters on the Reverse being 'flat based'. Will see if I have one and take a pic. With coins such as this quite often the die crack or other fault could be used to identify the mint. Now I am really confused as well. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
674 Posts |
  1922 Penny "Flat Based Lettering". Most obvious on the letter 'L'. "Sydney Mint"? |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
674 Posts |
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Valued Member
 United States
160 Posts |
After going back to my Rennicks variety book to look for the coins you have just posted, I found I've overlooked the listing that said "D/C above COMMONWEALTH OF "that must be my coin. It says it is a Perth Mint, OBV/REV (C/B) Scarce. I see nothing else with that die crack listed, I guess that is what this is. Dave |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
674 Posts |
Done and Dusted.! Next.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Done and dusted NOT!
I don't know where the reference to Sydney having 1922 dated dies came from. Sydney had dies dated 1919 (ex Melb and possibly never used by Sydney), 1920 and 1924.
Perth and Melb both had reverses dated 1922 and both had English (AKA London) obverses. Perth also had 2 different types of Indian Obverses (the dies struck from the cloned damaged derivative master in Calcutta that was sent to Melb in 1920 as seen on most 1920 Indian and a portion of 1921 Indian, and the dies struck from the derivative master sent to Melb in 1921 and seen on most 1921 dated pennies and very rarely on 1920 CBL pennies).
As for the reverses on the 1922 pennies there are 2 possible sources with Melb being the main source and London reportedly sending some dies direct to Perth (I have only read that in one source but it was a reputable source). If London did send some dies direct then that may account for some anomalies that has had me pondering for years (like why are there wide date dies in 1922, just like when London made dies in 1913,14,15; especially as the wide date dies have a quality that the Melb mint couldn't make with dies made in Melb from Melb hubs having CBLs).
Oh and Renniks does not have a C in it as it is the reverse spelling of Dion Skinner who published the guide back in the 1960s.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
I should add that the Indians used from the 1920 obverse were ex Sydney from the 1st batch of Indian Obverses from the 20 dies struck in Calcutta and sent to Sydney via Melb rather than the 8 dies struck in Melb and sent to Sydney. Sydney for some reason only used about 7 of the dies in 1920 with about 20 left unused. They sent a few to Perth and used about 7 more in 1924 (from possibly only the 8 struck in Melb, but cannot be certain as the dies were degraded by rust and possibly missing the hub marker). One of the 1924 obverses was then re-used in Melb in 1927 for the 1927 Indian.
They had some strange die transfer behavior back then as Melb had also sent some English obverse dies to Sydney in 1924.
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Valued Member
United States
160 Posts |
This is all pretty confusing to me right now, but I am hoping to learn more about the minting and die making processes used for these coins.
The Rennicks Pre-decimal book lists the 1922 flat based Letters as rare and being minted in Sydney, all others for that year are either Melbourne or Perth. I may not be understanding all that I am reading , but for that one variety it does state Sydney mint.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Renniks is a fairly general varieties book, it is good but still plenty of errors in it. IIRC much of it is rehashed stuff from the late 1960s and there were lots of suppositions made back then. There is no reliable reference (either in or out of print) so at best you will get a reasonable guide.
I have spent a few thousand hours chasing down information (yes, I am anal) in archives and old references so I know a lot about the errors that catalogers and researchers have made. There is zero evidence that Sydney struck pennies dated 1922, I even spent time recording each weeks mintage figures from the Sydney mint records at the State archives (at Kingswood in western Sydney) and the last pennies sent 'to store' was on 15/1/1921 of 41 and 4/5ths bags (1200 coins per bag so 209 pounds face). The mint then only did halfpence as the only bronze coin until they sent 320 pounds face of pennies to the store on 9/8/1924.
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Valued Member
United States
160 Posts |
I find that very interesting, are you aware of anyone making any attempt at providing better and more precise information regarding the Penny varieties. I guess I am too used to the way things are done here in the US, almost every denomination of coin has it's own experts and numerous publications. I just assumed when I began collecting the Australian Penny that I could purchase books that were dedicated to just that series of coin only. Every publication I have has very little on the penny itself, that's why forums like this are so valuable, with out them so much would go unanswered.
Thanks for taking the time, it is truly appreciated.
Dave
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Dave
Here in Australia there are no specialist books on the pennies because the market is too small and the research to fill the books is lacking. Those who do publish have to cover a wider range of coins (such as all pre decimals) and that limits how in depth they go. Also the only varieties books are by Fred (Fred Levers Guide to Varieties)and Ian (who contributes to Coin and Banknote Magazine and revised the Renniks Variety Catalogue); both are enthusiastic and experienced varieties collectors but neither have the skills to do the technical research (so their publishing's rely on iffy old ideas that get rehashed).
There are some who have done some good technical studies, they include the likes of Jon Saxton and Paul Holland who have published in CAB or JNAA but even they are limited to what they can do in their spare time, and as they are both in the US it is doubly hard for them.
Also some posters on this forum seem to be very knowledgeable about some of the pennies, but nobody has a comprehensive knowledge of all the pennies (for example I know more about the 1924 penny than anyone, but for 1925 I wouldn't even be sure if it is CBL or FBL or a Chinese fake so I would ask others on this forum for their knowledge).
The US cent/penny researchers also have the advantage that all your pennies were minted in the USA. Ours were minted in 7 mints spread over 3 continents and lots of records have been lost or are unavailable in mints archives. As the research is a labour of love (nobody earns a cent for contributing to CAB or the journals) it becomes hard to spend the money to do the overseas study trips or even spend the time in the archives.
So bottom line is you have to accept the limitations of what information is available to you (and yes I find the limitations frustrating so it spurs me to do the research to fill in some gaps; it is a thrill when you dig up info that nobody else knows).
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Valued Member
United States
160 Posts |
My goals are pretty simple, collect the Penny, find as much information as I can, post that and a pic to my site. I guess I have an advantage collecting them because so little is known about them here. I had a gentlemen call me the other day, he told me my name was given to him by a friend and I might be interested in some of the kangaroo things he had setting around. He said they were all messed up and not worth much. Die cracks, filled dies and lamination errors are what he meant by "all messed up. I will be driving 700 miles tomorrow to attend a coin show in Iowa, hope to pick up the messed up ones on the way and see what the dealers there have to offer in the way of Australian Pennies.
Dave
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2180 Posts |
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Replies: 19 / Views: 5,441 |
Posted 07/11/2013 5:33 pm
