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 Replies: 15 / Views: 2,678 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5417 Posts |
Hey I need some help identifying this old spanish cob, it's authenticity as well as grade and value. Thanks!  |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
Need accurate weight on this one.
All of the detail that is visible seems to be well struck. That is unusual for cobs.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I wouldn't say well struck from what I see, I would say fouree ...
Which would mean contemporary counterfeit, with a copper core, and a gold outer layer.
Am I correct ?
(design also doesn't match what I'm used to see ... but I'm more used to silver, so ... :D )
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5417 Posts |
Yes, it is Fouree. What is the value and approximate dating?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Well, the ebay listing claims it to be a fouree (contemporary counterfeit)... seemingly of a 1600s homeland Spain 1 Escudo (indeterminable mint). Note the "I" on the left - the denomination is invariably on the right for any Spain 1E of this period, but I would guess that the "I" is likely intended as the denom. rather than any nonsensical mintmark. Some context on the history of this particular specimen and its stunning markup considering the flipper clearly has absolutely no idea about these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Espagne-esc...171080370431http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fouree-Span...221268581644The first appearance states the weight as 1.42 grams. If it is indeed supposed to be a 1 Escudo, that's less than half the weight it should be (3.3-3.4), which would point to it being a modern lightweight copy. The diameter is also quite small at 15mm. Note that there was no "half escudo" piece at that time... though maybe that could be part of the scam and someone was trying to pass this nonexistent denomination? The low weight/size might make sense then. Aside from that, the piece does look more contemporary counterfeit than modern cast to my eyes. This can be very hard to tell with cobs, of course... however the styling of the shield (and also how the base metal is coming through in the exposed areas) is more reminiscent of what I've seen on some contemporary casts of silver homeland Spain pieces... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
"All of the detail that is visible seems to be well struck. That is unusual for cobs."
That makes it sound like "cob" denotes one specific style, always done in the same manner... That's an overgeneralization. There a LARGE amount of variance over time, from mint to mint, and between assayers within a given mint.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I decided to 'plug in' a couple of leading comments.  Due the the uneven surface of most cob blanks, large parts of the detail are often not struck up at all. If they are, you have to be suspicious.  Over a period of a decade or more, the gold of the plating and the copper underneath tend to fuse into each other to yield the result of colour that now can be seen. The verdigrised core is showing up at the edges, where the plating was thinnest. Edited by sel_69l
09/06/2013 8:31 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5417 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
"What the market dictates"
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5417 Posts |
An approximation perhaps. I might want to buy it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
You know, popcorn is quite a terrible food for one's system... Quote:
Due the the uneven surface of most cob blanks, large parts of the detail are often not struck up at all. If they are, you have to be suspicious. That really is just further elucidating the same overgeneralization. Again, MANY different iterations are seen across the general style that is called "cob". Some mints/eras/assayers produced chunky and/or faceted pieces... some produced rather level, broad planchets... and it DOESN'T always conform to the general "early on, good, later was crummy" which is often given in primers on cobs. To be suspicious or not suspicious, you really have to first recognize exactly what period/mint you're dealing with and what the typical attributes are... I would actually say that for what this piece in question seems to imitate (in terms of period/style - 1610s Spain minors, silver or gold), the general physical appearance is not terribly uncommmon. ---------------- zxcccxz, what are YOUR thoughts on it? You're not offering much in the way of your own observations. What interests about this particular piece that you don't seem to know much about? Do you collect Spanish? Do you collect contemporary counterfeits? Do you specifically collect Spanish contemp. counterfeits? I would think that someone interested in this piece would have some basis to start from in terms of attribution and pricing... |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5417 Posts |
I've been trying to get my hands on some early Spanish gold but most things are too expensive and I'd rather use $500 to buy some European gold than Spanish cobs. This seemed to be a good replacement and as it stands I think I can get price down by about 40%. I have some knowledge on real cobs but none on gold counterfeits. So to get to the point what do you think is the market value of the piece in question?
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I maintain a 'black' collection of fake ancients for my own education.
The example here, for me, has no value at all.
I would pay no more than $20 for this one, and that would be a lot more than it is worth, even as a fake.
I would consider to buy fake ancient gold coins, but strictly for their gold value only. Currently, although I have about 50 very good fake ancient coins, I have yet to acquire a gold one.
I would seek the opinion of a professional numistmatist before such a purchase. Fortunately, I know of two highly respected numistmatists in the ancient coin scene. They also have decades of experience in coins of this period.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
I maintain a 'black' collection of fake ancients for my own education. Meaning modern numismatic fakes... or circulating counterfeits of the time? Big distinction in terms of collectibility - former no (save for study/comparison), latter definitely. Back to the piece... To me, a piece like this isn't be a stand-in for a gold "type cob"... it would be more of an accompaniment to an existing cob collection, or a collection of its own. With some patience, you could probably nab a genuine 1E for around that figure (pretty sure I saw a homeland Spain 1E go on the Bay a week or two ago for about $550, 600 or so)... Also, note that in general, your cheapest gold cobs ARE the peninsular Spain types... so, that IS technically European gold (though I know you mean a ducat or something like that). One purchased with some smart, patient shopping wouldn't be a waste... always a good market for these. Alternatively, you could shop around for a made-of-gold replica (from the Atocha replica/Florida jeweler-type outfits)... or go real cheap and just get some tourist-type base metal piece. This piece is only worth anywhere near what he's asking to a sophisticated, advanced collector of contemp. counterfeit cobs (such as Bob is with Portrait/Cap & Ray)... if such a specialist simply HAS to have, or finds there to be something concretely interesting about this piece in particular. Edited by realeswatcher
09/07/2013 03:24 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
zxcccxz : actaully got 500 USD you could get spanish gold.
I checked my inventory, I paid 400€ for one of those (sevilla Felipe II real), 400€ for another Sevilla Felipe III 2 escudos.
Depends how much details you want (date / king's ordinal / essayer each add some $$$), and how well struck ... and how much time you wait :)
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
My 'black' collection is of fake ancients, not counterfeits.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,678 |
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Posted 09/06/2013 7:10 pm
