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Please Help! What Exactly Is A VAM?

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anthony giani's Avatar
United States
39 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  3:39 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add anthony giani to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Good afternoon everyone, I am new to collecting and have focused in on Morgan dollars. I am studying up as much as possible on them so that I actually KNOW what I'm looking at when I purchase them. Now I come across VAM's. I have read the sticky and a few posts and am also studying VAMworld.com and for the life of me I cannot figure out what these are. How do I identify them? What am I exactly identifying? I just cannot seem to grasp this concept so any and all info that anyone can provide for me would be a big help!
I appreciate all of the responses in advance and look forward to hearing them!
AG
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bobby131313's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 09/13/2013  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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anthony giani's Avatar
United States
39 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  4:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add anthony giani to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Read it. Understand the actual definition but I do not get why if these are so special that everyone doesn't search for them? Also I am not grasping the actual numbering and lettering system used? Thanks for the reply Bobby. Just looking for more specifics on the subject I guess.
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CoinsKelly's Avatar
United States
3453 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First, good for you on doing the research before really delving into this area. I think I understand what you are asking so I will try to answer it and hope other members will chime in.

A VAM number identifies specific, agreed upon characteristics that create a variety. It is the same as the numbers that are assigned to the DDO, DDR, repunched dates of other coins. The beauty (and curse) of VAM numbers is that I believe the Morgan dollars is one of the best researched series so all the different varieties have specific numbers. Since I am not a VAM expert, I cannot tell you if there is a rhyme or reason to the numbering so I rely on VAMWorld and CCF when I attempt to identify the VAM variety.


Quote:
I do not get why if these are so special that everyone doesn't search for them?


Simplistically they are special to those who care about them...and there are many who do. IMHO it is an art form that requires patience and many collectors have multiple interests (myself included - sorry SsuperDdave!) so they do not always put the time into identifying the VAM.

The best advice I received in attributing a VAM number to a Morgan was to start with the date and mint mark. From there, you can narrow down the VAM number by the different features listed in VAM world.

Hope this helps!
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anthony giani's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 09/13/2013  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add anthony giani to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the response kelly, through alot of reading I am getting it piece by piece. I'm also going to purchase a book specifically on Morgans in a bit- possible Peace dollars also as these are my collection focuses. That would be the best start for me I think. I appreciate your help!
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dave700x's Avatar
United States
10625 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to CCF! There are a few VAMmers on this site myself included. Collecting Morgans by die pairings ( VAM) is not for everyone and as SsuperDdave says, not for the faint of heart. You'll find that there are many VAMs that just jump out at you because they are so obvious and some are so minute that they drive you bonkers trying to identify. I strongly suggest you follow the instructions on VAMworld when attempting to attribute your Morgan and Peace dollars.
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Collecting Morgans by die pairings ( VAM) is not for everyone


That's for sure, I really had little interest in them, until I found two that I made around $1000 each on reselling them. That really kick started my wanting to learn more. I got into them around the time Dr. Fey and Jeff Oxman wrote the TOP100 VAM varieties book, then a couple month later they announced the would both be at the ANA Summer Seminar to teach a class on VAMs and vamming, I learned so much that week, and was hooked ever since. It is a bit crazy, but an enjoyable subset to the hobby of collecting by just date and mint marks alone. Heck even the major price guides list some of the big VAM varieties before most of us had ever heard of them. 7/8 Tail feather, 1887/6 dollars 1900-O/CC and the 1901 shifted eagle were all in the RedBook and Greysheet for years before VAMs ever came to the public forefront.

It can be a tough egg to crack at the beginning, but there are many people very willing to help newbies out in understanding and attributing VAMs.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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anthony giani's Avatar
United States
39 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add anthony giani to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Will do Dave and thanks for the response AND the welcome!
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anthony giani's Avatar
United States
39 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add anthony giani to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks West. Though I plan on holding onto my pieces for the foreseeable future, whats interesting is the detective work that goes into VAMming. I also wouldn't make the statement that if I could at some point make a thousand dollars that I would pass it up! Thanks for the response and for the offer to help. I'll be researching as much as possible until my USB microscope comes in and then I'll start studying the pieces myself. Looking forward to it!
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Keep in mind, Anthony, that for all intents and purposes VAMming is still in its' infancy. It's the natural bent of any aficionado of any coin issue to want to categorize that issue by die variety; it's already been done for most pre-Morgan issues - copper Cents and Half-Cents, early Halves by Overton, early copper by Newcomb and others, early Dollars by Bolender and others, smaller silver by Fortin, Valentine and others....you get the idea.

Morgan dollars were first approached in this fashion by Leroy Van Allen and A. George Mallis. Nobody else had attempted a task of this size - Morgans were minted by the hundreds of millions - before. It's very important to know that Mr. Van Allen is not only still with us (Mr. Mallis having already passed), but he is by universal acclaim still the only person who can designate a new VAM.

Since the last print publication of the VAM Encyclopedia, something close to half of all known VAMs have been identified. That number increases by the day, still. You need to become a member on the VAMworld Wiki - which is the central repository and gathering point of those who seek Morgan VAMs - and be well aware that you propose to become part of a work in progress. This is why you're not getting definitive answers on the topic; the definitions aren't set yet. If you choose to become part of this, you're going to be helping to create those definitions.

It is the single greatest collaborative research in the history of numismatics. Nothing like this has ever been attempted before - not on this scale - and the jury remains out as to whether it's even possible.

But we're trying.
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anthony giani's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 09/13/2013  10:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add anthony giani to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Dave for the response! I just became a member of VAMworld and have been studying up on some of the terminology that's used, looking at lots of pictures, etc., etc. It's quite interesting and I look forward to being a positive contributor to the community! I was wondering why there was so much vagueness with responses- thanks for clearing it up for me. I had no clue that what I just got myself into was in such a state of infancy!
Regards,
A
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anthony giani's Avatar
United States
39 Posts
 Posted 09/13/2013  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add anthony giani to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So maybe you can help me with a question superdave. Say I have a Morgan with a date that has a known number of VAM's found on them- does this mean that all pieces from that date from that mint have all the same VAM's on them? Will my piece have those VAM's on them? If so, many of them are commonplace no? Now also would my purchase of a USB microscope (waiting for its arrival) help in seeing these VAM's or did I just waste my money? Finally, if some of these VAM's are so commonplace, if in fact they are, why are certain pieces rarer and thus more expensive then any of the same type of coins?
Thanks for the help!
A
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Bacchus2's Avatar
United Kingdom
2871 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2013  01:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It is the single greatest collaborative research in the history of numismatics. Nothing like this has ever been attempted before - not on this scale


That's probably true for US coinage.

But if you take a wander into ancients and the Roman imperial Coinage catalogs - or their many many derivatives you'll find masses and masses of work on die parings that's been going on for centuries.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 09/17/2013  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Forgive the delay, Anthony; I work long shifts and weird hours, and go a couple days at a time without being able to access the forum.

One numbered VAM is one Morgan dollar variety. Its' features are unique to that date, mint mark and die pair.* Each date/MM combination uses the same numbering system, starting with VAM-1, so for instance an 1880-O VAM-2 has nothing whatsoever to do with an 1886-P VAM-2. And although some differing VAMs within one year issue might share characteristics - die pairs changed, and sometimes one obverse die (for example) was used with two reverse dies, so that would create two VAMs - no two different VAMs will ever be exactly alike.

Now, let's discuss values, keeping in mind that a coin's street value is a function of both supply and demand. Demand is why a 1909-S VDB Lincoln sells for so much, when they're seemingly a glut on the market. So it is with rarer VAMs. The 1878 issue year has a large fan base, and extensive research has been done over years on them. New VAMs are still being identified with regularity (one or two a year), but much of the knowledgebase for that year is relatively stable since their popularity has led to such complete research. The scarcer 1878's are known rarities and therefore command higher premiums among a large collector base, leading to expensive coins. Now, show me the rarest 1904-O VAM - there could only be two or three known - and I won't pay you as much as I might for that 1878 with 20 known. It's not in demand for me; there's too little competition.

I do not believe that there are as many as 25 individuals who are seriously attempting to collect a large portion of known VAMs. There are nearly 5000 known VAMs; that's a pretty big job.

* Originally, Messrs. Van Allen and Mallis codified their VAMs by features rather than specific die pairs. They had accurate information regarding the number of dies prepared - over 3500 pairs for the total Morgan mintage, not including 1921 - and given that hub production was at a level of accuracy previously unequalled in US coin production, I'm guessing they figured that identifying individual die pairs was a futile task. Nowadays, most of those doing serious VAM research are, in fact, identifying specific die pairs. This is leading to, in addition to the finding of new VAMs, the consolidation of old designations which turned out to be the same die pair, and expansion of others for which more than one die pair was identified.

Not all VAMs are nice enough to identify themselves with special, unique markings like die gouges, doubled lettering or odd date/mint mark locations. Sometimes, very small differences in tiny marks inside the devices of the die are all that differentiates two VAMs. This is where VAMming becomes tedious and academic, and the ultimate reward for that work will never be other than basic knowledge. The overwhelming majority of VAMs are unlikely to ever be worth more than "standard" Morgan prices.

There are a very few, however, which will fetch thousands in circulated condition. And it's a virtual certainty that every example of each of them has not yet been discovered.
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westcoin's Avatar
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9792 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2013  10:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There are a very few, however, which will fetch thousands in circulated condition. And it's a virtual certainty that every example of each of them has not yet been discovered.


And a big reason I keep soldiering on, gotta find that next big one! I've found 1878-S Long Nock, a couple of 1878-P 8TF VAM 9's and 2 1901-P VAM 3 shifted eagles! One is in an details AU holder, the other was unfortunately polished

I was spending my early days of VAMing looking pretty much exclusively at 8TF VAMs, then I decided to branch out and collect some others. My mentor has finished his 7TF set and is now upgrading them to PCGS and as high of grade as he can find and afford. Don't know if I'll go that far though. I do like the challenge of looking for them in junk dollar bins at the coin shows though. Lately I've been getting more into EACs than VAMs and have been considering selling some VAMs off to get some EACs, it never ends does it?
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Rest in Peace
dave700x's Avatar
United States
10625 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2013  11:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Westcoin, I had a pleasant discovery the other day going through my Morgans I purchased a long time ago. (pre VAMming days) It's a 1878-S VAM27 in maybe EF40 condition.
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