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 Replies: 34 / Views: 4,586 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
11922 Posts |
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Valued Member
Canada
220 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2495 Posts |
This may surprise you coming from me. I think ICCS's grade will be higher than NGC's on this one. Because NGC (all US TPG's) penalize a coin for lack of lustre (whereas ICCS does not) and also, NGC grade mainly looking at the high points (marked cheek) and ICCS grades mainly by the quality of the coins' fields (which look MS and very nice). S0......I'm guessing NGC ms62 or ms63 and ICCS ms63 or an ms64. Edited by doubleeagle59
10/18/2013 7:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3049 Posts |
There are some scratches or nicks on the chin/jaw bone area and it looks like George has a wart up on his forehead.... I also don't like the toning. Just how the dark tarnish is in some places and not in others just doesn't look right for me.
My best guess is MS-60 *details*
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
I would give it a 'details' coin too... MS-62
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
I would guess MS 62 or MS 63 ...even with the marks on the jaw bone.
I just don't understand how the dark black got into the details like it did. Can anyone answer that one?
Would sitting in a humid location for a long time do that?
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Edited by DEVLEC
10/19/2013 5:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2301 Posts |
I would be surprised if ICCS gave this MS. AU 50/55 from the picture provided. IMO
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
I'm guessing NGC graded it as MS 62, the tone of the coin makes this one tough
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1461 Posts |
ICCS is not at all appearance conscious. It is why I think this coin will grade same with ICCS  Edited by TheCoinHunter
10/19/2013 9:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Hard to believe that with those very noticeable contacts marks on the jaw that this coin would still get a grade of MS 64. I will now send all of my posted coins ... to NGC.  |
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Valued Member
Canada
449 Posts |
I don't think this one comes even close to ms at ICCS. Not with that bag mark on the jaw.
Edited by secoinedchance
10/21/2013 10:15 pm
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Valued Member
83 Posts |
The reason that there are areas of dark tone around legend and portrait edges is that prior to this coin being dipped in a silver cleaning solution, it was most likely uniformly dark in tone as a result of tarnishing.
The dull, non-lustrous appearance of the coin is a result of the dip solution being too strong, or the coin being allowed to soak too long, resulting in lustre removal.
While one can argue whether the actual details and surface marks warrant MS-62, 63, or 64... by definition, this coin is no longer in "Mint State" (the condition it was in when it left the mint).
Charlton grading standards state that in:
MS-60 "lustre may be disturbed but is present to high degree"
MS-63 " will have original mint lustre "
MS-65 " must have full original lustre "
Don't necessarily agree that all US company 3rd party graders "penalize" for lack of lustre, as indicated by the incorrect designation by NGC on this coin - but agree that PCGS would not generally give a coin like this a high-grade designation and would rather class it as "details".
I would assert that no grader is correct when awarding a high mint-state designation for a coin when it is missing a critically important virtue in the grading element such as presence of lustre.
In my opinion, regardless of the excellent "details", and the likely probability that prior to cleaning it may have been in high grade "uncirculated" condition, this coin has unfortunately been "damaged" by the removal of lustre and as such loses a great deal of its value as a collectible coin.
Not sure that any experienced, knowledgeable buyer would value this piece at more than MS-60 value, regardless of what the title description and grade assessment the plastic casket has typed on it.
Scott's Canadian Coins
Edited by Scotts Canadian Coins
10/21/2013 10:19 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1461 Posts |
My Two Cents in response to the two posts above. ICCS is the least appearance conscious grader out there, PCGS the most. So I'm not sure the bag marks will effect the grade with ICCS. With respect to Scott's comments. This coin, although not well visible on the picture and albeit somewhat dull, has a frosty patina well in tact throughout the coin. The spots you see are more likely caused by moisture (moisture will sit between low and high points and crevasses). In my opinion this is not a dipped coin. While I may agree that this coin may be priced and likely sell below market, it will be penalized by appearance and not grade. As you well know, not all coins that grade the same, sell the same. Some people like shiny coins, others, not so much. Secondly, there are many coins ICCS graded MS64 with some very dark toning, spots and patina barely visible if at all (see a few ICCS examples below. All MS64). With respect to your last comment, we can't discard grading services as a reasonable bar of quality. If you're telling me that the coin is worth to you a price of an MS60 from an appearance stand point, I'd say that's fair. However (let's assume that ICCS grades it the same) if you take the stand that although 2 grading companies and few people within them put a consistent number on it and you still don't agree, well then...I'd have to say you're wrong. All the coins below are ICCS graded MS64, Most have facial bag marks (Lat picture closup).          Edited by TheCoinHunter
10/22/2013 2:47 pm
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Valued Member
83 Posts |
With all due respect Coin Hunter - but every one of the examples that you show has also been dipped to remove tarnish - just not as damaging as was done to your '44.
My point being, that we shouldn't be taking the assessment of so-called "professional" graders as the gospel truth. Just because a coin is housed in a 3rd party slab / pouch doesn't necessarily mean the grade is correct.
It's not possible to separate "appearance" from grade, as the appearance of the coin is an integral part of assessing the grade of the coin - whereas you can certainly separate assessing the quality of the "details" of a coin from it's eventual grade assignment.
As mentioned in my previous post - Charlton standards of grading assert that to be classified as "mint state" a coin must have some degree, to full degree, of original mint lustre present.
In my opinion this is a significant factor for the grading of coins - and any grader is incorrect in assigning a high MS grade to a coin that is lacking in the presence of lustre.
Re your reluctance to believe that coins have been dipped - those who have experience with dipping coins in cleaning solutions will attest to the fact that often on the first dip tarnish will remain in the areas of legend details and edges of portrait.
As to your reference to "frosty patina" please help me understand what you are meaning. I have heard of lustre being described as "frosty" particularly on cameo finish coins - but patina?
From Wiki: Patina is a tarnish that forms on the surface of copper, bronze and similar metals (produced by oxidation or other chemical processes) On metal, patina is a coating of various chemical compounds such as oxides, carbonates, sulfides, or sulfates formed on the surface during exposure to atmospheric elements (oxygen, rain, acid rain, carbon dioxide, sulfur-bearing compounds.
Scott's Canadian Coins
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Moderator
 Canada
10460 Posts |
I would not be so bold in making such judgement, without viewing the coins in hand. The fastest way to remove lustre from any coin (in the resultant photo) is to capture an image of the coin using a flatbed scanner.... all the images in this thread look like they were scanned....
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Replies: 34 / Views: 4,586 |
Posted 10/18/2013 7:32 pm
