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Replies: 44 / Views: 5,691 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4594 Posts |
Quote: But, there is a point where numismatic value is overcome by damage. Regardless of whether a coin is cleaned or not, the value is affected. My argument is that careful cleaning would overcome environmental damage in terms of value, and that careful cleaning can and should enhance the value of coins. NO. Not to the concept, but to the terminology. Other disciplines have addressed these same issues and found terms and concepts that work. I think the word you are groping for is Conservation. Which in every art context has a very specific meaning related to preservation of both the object and it's state to the best possible level. That's why the art world differentiates between cleaning, conservation and restoration. Conservation is stabilizing the item against further environmental damage. Conservation uses technologies that can be removed as future technologies improve. Restoration is a permanent change to the item. It too may be the best we can do to preserve the object and it's state. Quote: Right now, I am very very sad at the environmental damage to one particular proof set I have. At 10x magnification, I can see pinholecorrosion that could have been prevented by a simple cleaning and moving it into a better holder. Say it better: "pinholecorrosion that could have been prevented by" careful chemical neutralization "and moving it into a better holder". Had you done this when the corrosion first presented itself, you would have met the conservation statement above... stabilizing the item against further environmental damage. Polishing too has a specific meaning - removing tarnish. With no other focus. And it's well known that repeated polishing removed detail. Check your Grannie's silver. Heck check my mom's silver which she doesn't polish but once a decade and you can still pick out the pieces she added for her 30th anniversary.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19969 Posts |
Let me clarity for the OP.
Cleaning - A harsh process that leaves tell-tail signs and damages the coin.
Conservation - A calculated process which corrects a problem without damaging the coin and leaves no detectable damage.
Regardless of the chosen methodology, if no harm was done, then the coin is considered CONSERVED and NOT cleaned.
Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19969 Posts |
Quote: Why is cleaning a coin so bad? To answer the OP thread title: Because cleaning causes permanent damage to the coin surfaces.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4227 Posts |
Quote: That's why the art world differentiates between cleaning, conservation and restoration.
Conservation is stabilizing the item against further environmental damage. Conservation uses technologies that can be removed as future technologies improve.
Restoration is a permanent change to the item. It too may be the best we can do to preserve the object and it's state. This.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
One more reply about cleaning coins. In fact there are those that don't care if a coin is cleaned or not. Same with old relics, paintings, etc. Some care, some don't. If you collect coins and they are now yours, you can do to them as you wish. If you never tell anyone you cleaned them, polished them, sandplasted them, acid dipped them, only you will know. Someone I know turned an old sewing machine table into a bench grinder stand. Every day people modify their cars to be what they like. In the past people have painted right over possible so called masterpeices. The really only important thing about cleaning a coin, doing other things to paintings, old furnature, etc. is value. If you never plan on selling something, who would know what you did to it. Regardless of what a problem was on a coin, and regardless of what you do to fix it, if you never tell anyone, only you would ever know. The original question of what is wrong with cleaning a coin is mainly doing something to something that will bother someone in the future. If your collecting coins as a hobby for yourself, no plans on selling any, giving any away, leaving them to someone, then as said, they are yours. If, however, you ever want to sell any, think about what your doing with any type of cleaning.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19969 Posts |
Carl - It's not only that my friend. We have to remember, we are merely caretakers/curators for the future. Regardless of whether or not we sell our coins, eventually they will be owned by someone else....in fact, they will be owned by many more people - until they are lost to attrition.
Lincoln Cent Lover!VERDI-CARE™ INVENTOR https://verdi.care/
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote: Carl - It's not only that my friend. We have to remember, we are merely caretakers/curators for the future. Regardless of whether or not we sell our coins, eventually they will be owned by someone else....in fact, they will be owned by many more people - until they are lost to attrition. All so true. Unfortunately so many just care about the present.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1959 Posts |
I don't have the energy to conjur up a decent reply, but if I did, I would echo the points of SsuperDdave. Only it would be written in a slightly less intelligent and thorough way. Try your best not to be offended and learn from the words of wisdom. Just because you may slip a cleaned coin by a TPG doesn't mean it hasn't been cleaned. I have personally passed on buying many many coins in PCGS slabs due to the fact I KNEW they had been cleaned. I didn't trust it just because it was in a PCGS slab.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3692 Posts |
I believe scenario C is also cleaning. Once you get rid of the lustre between the letters in the legend you can't put it back. A circulation coin gets struck once. After that it's done, it's mint.
Simply touching the face of a proof coin "impairs" it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2368 Posts |
Although it is technically not really proper to clean coins, in my opinion if it is a low value, circulated coin and it has some gunk on it, some water, acetone, and a toothpick might be appropriate. If it is not worth much more over face value or melt value it couldn't hurt. Anyway, some people might disagree, but that's just my opinion. Hope this helps.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1751 Posts |
Very interesting thread. I still consider myself a newbie after over a year of serious collecting. I don't do anything to my coin other than putting them in two by twos. @ baseball 21 you mentioned one time in the past cleaning was ok, do you know when this all changed? I'd really like an answer, I'm very curious when and why it changed? I hope someone will be able to she'd some light on the change.
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Moderator
 Australia
16859 Posts |
Quote: baseball 21 you mentioned one time in the past cleaning was ok, do you know when this all changed? I'd really like an answer, I'm very curious when and why it changed? I hope someone will be able to she'd some light on the change. It was a gradual change in acceptable behaviour, rather than a sudden shift from "cleaning is good" to "cleaning is bad". Prior to WWI and certainly prior to WWII and the invention of cheap plastic coin albums and pages, there was very little that collectors could do to keep their mint-state coins looking mint state. Cleaning was just one of the things that collectors and antiquarians of old used to do with this in mind that are no longer considered acceptable. Part of the reason is that we can now see the damage that those well-meaning but foolish coin cleaners have done. And its partly that many of those old-time collectors were collecting in isolation, with nobody to suggest to them that what they were doing to their coins might be harmful.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Rest in Peace
United States
1729 Posts |
Let me see if I can get past all the personal opinions and take this discussion to the nitty-gritty.
There's no "redo" button when you clean a coin.
Once you've removed the top surface of a coin (note that I don't describe what "surface" is), you've removed part of the coin's history.
The loss of a coin's history devalues the coin.
Those who try to squeeze in between the above two statements are fooling themselves or the rest of us by (paraphrasing now) trying to convince us that we can't really tell when a coin has been cleaned.
Those who understand the statements above are probably serious collectors.
Those who don't understand the statements above probably enjoy their coins as shiny, pretty objects. And who am I to say that they are wrong in doing so?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8904 Posts |
Quote: Carl - It's not only that my friend. We have to remember, we are merely caretakers/curators for the future. Regardless of whether or not we sell our coins, eventually they will be owned by someone else....in fact, they will be owned by many more people - until they are lost to attrition. Quote: Let me see if I can get past all the personal opinions and take this discussion to the nitty-gritty.
There's no "redo" button when you clean a coin.
Once you've removed the top surface of a coin (note that I don't describe what "surface" is), you've removed part of the coin's history.
The loss of a coin's history devalues the coin.
Those who try to squeeze in between the above two statements are fooling themselves or the rest of us by (paraphrasing now) trying to convince us that we can't really tell when a coin has been cleaned.
Those who understand the statements above are probably serious collectors.
Those who don't understand the statements above probably enjoy their coins as shiny, pretty objects... IMO, these two responses sum up my complete feelings about the OP's topic (not that SsuperDdave didn't nail the initial response  ). The US Mint is not making anymore of these coins that we love, respect and cherish. We're all about preserving these beauties, not only for ourselves, but for our children and children's children and so on. We KNOW, from experience, what cleaning does to a coin. The coin is irreparably damaged. Period. And it's not coming back. We only have so many of our past's coins. We HAVE to protect the ones we have. I, and I'm sure many of my CCF brothers and sisters, hope you listen to us and respect the coins you now own. It's important.
Edited by Moe145 11/20/2013 10:39 pm
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Replies: 44 / Views: 5,691 |