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History Of Coin Circulation In Early US

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New Member

United States
3 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2007  10:24 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add BeverlyS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi folks, I'm not only new here, I'm not a coin collector. I am not, however, here under false pretenses. I'm a novelist who is currently doing a series published by Simon & Schuster and set in early American times (I'm not trying to use this forum to sell my books - anyone who's interested can go to http://www.beverlyswerling.com) and I have a question about coin history that some of you experts can hopefully - and kindly - answer.

Were English shilling coins still likely to be in circulation in NYC in 1833 and thereabouts? I am obviously familiar with the usual encyclopedia info about early US coins, it's the common usage I'm not sure of. Until the time of the Revolution and later I know coins of every nation were circulated here. It's common usage and English shilling coins I'm wondering about. Many thanks for any help.

***Edited by Forum Mom to move to Main Coin Forum for better exposure.***
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
United States
5877 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2007  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome to our CC family! What a fascinating project you have given us a chance to help with!

I moved your post so more people would see it. I'm sure you will get plenty of help here.

I don't believe that the shilling coins were widely circulated in the US by the eary-mid 1800's. By then, the US was freely minting its own coinage. There were some private post-Revolutionary US shilling issues. I do not believe that there were enough minted for them to circulate freely, however, and many of these circulated in specific local areas.

I'm sure that someone else will be able to give you more info.
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Prethen's Avatar
United States
3233 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2007  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Actually, it's quite possible English shilling coins were in circulation at that time. In fact, it was very common for a number of foreign coins, especially Mexican Reales, to be circulating. All that foreign coinage was legal tender in the U.S. until 1857 when an Act was passed barring them from being legal tender. I think Breen even makes direct mention of the fact that the worker in the 1840's would often see some mismash of currency in their pay envelopes, including shillings. U.S federal coinage was not circulating well enough (or perhaps not enough minted) to provide for commerce needs, so foreign coinage was a necessity.
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
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 Posted 06/27/2007  1:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I stand corrected, then. Thanks, Prethen.
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houston_guy462004's Avatar
United States
235 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2007  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add houston_guy462004 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coinage was more likely to be older Spanish cins before 1821, or in the Southwest, the liberty cap Mexican coins. By 1833, however, the United States was fairly self-sufficient in its subsidiary coins. No silver dollars were minted from 1804 to 1840, although the Spanish 8-reales piece and French 5-franc piece (tariffed at $0.93)were in circulation gold coins were scarce until 1834. The Spanish 2-escudo piece and French 20-franc piece (tariffed at $3.81) were common. Source: Schilke, America's Foreign Coins.
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United States
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 Posted 06/27/2007  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BeverlyS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, but strikes me that New York would have been different than the Southwest, unless I'm misunderstanding you.
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Prethen's Avatar
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 Posted 06/27/2007  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Larger cities like New York probably had much easier access to federal coinage than outlying areas. If you weren't in a big city, even into the 1850's, you'd probably see your share of foreign currency and maybe quite a bit of it.
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Susanlynn9's Avatar
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 Posted 06/27/2007  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susanlynn9 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It would stand to reason, though, that people coming into New York or Philadelphia would have brought the foreign coinage with them and I'm sure it was accepted there. The NY and northern areas were predominantly English settlements, so perhaps the shilling would have been relatively common.
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tights24's Avatar
United States
2254 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2007  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tights24 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Boy do I feel stupid. I honestly never knew Foreign coinage was that prevalent here. Thanks Prethen and Mom, awesome info. Of course thank you Beverly for even posing the question. Good luck.
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2007  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
BeverlyS,
welcome to the forum

I have a few passages from a book by Q. David Bowers you might find interesting. He is a renowned numismatic expert and has written over 40 books on the subject.



The Expert's Guide to Collecting & Investing In Rare Coins by Q. David Bowers

Chapter 10, pg. 151
As to the importance of blending history with numismatics, here are some scenarios based on facts:

2. The time is January 1851, and you visit a dry goods store in Philadelphia, New York, or Charleston, and tender $10 to make a purchase, receiving several dollars' worth of silver coins in change. You look at the handful of coins, and not a single Liberty Seated silver coin is in sight. All are foreign coins, mostly depicting Spanish kings. And, yet, Liberty Seated coins have been made in quantity since 1837.


Chapter 10, pg. 158
1792-1859. Foreign Coins Still Legal Tender.
Even after the Philadelphia Mint was established in 1792, it would be many years until there was a large supply of U.S. coins in circulation. In the meantime, selected foreign silver and gold coins continued to dominate commerce. Their legal-tender status was revoked two and a half years after passage of the Act of February 21, 1857.
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docsfishn's Avatar
United States
1031 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2007  11:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add docsfishn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting. I've never really thought about how US coins began circulating but this makes a lot of sense.
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cladking's Avatar
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2270 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2007  12:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cladking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There was a lot of coins of the Americas circulating in addition to the Spanish and Mexican. Most of these were 8R coins made to the Spanish standard. There were also parts of these circulating which were called bits. The pieces of eight (8R) were usually cut into quarters of two bits but sometimes into eights of one bit (=12 1/2c).

Good silver was widely accepted and British coins were good silver but the conversion to dollars was unwieldy so circulation shouldn't have been common.

The government had their hands full just trying to keep small change in circulation. US silver was often melted by private concerns for profit and was held by banks as backing for specie. There was not always widespread access to US coins.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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United States
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 Posted 06/28/2007  07:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BeverlyS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all so very much! I knew I would find authoritative and thoughtful folks here as indeed I did. I very much appreciate it and the book acknowledgments will credit the site and this forum. (I'd give you the title but it's not yet decided on - I could write three books in the time it takes us to settle on a title. It won't be out, however, until 2009; that's publishing.) And if I can talk the publicity people into a contest of some sort, I'll come back looking for advice about some rare coin to be the prize. Thanks again.
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NumisMattyUk's Avatar
United Kingdom
2217 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2007  07:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisMattyUk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been following this thread since yesterday - fascinating stuff...
Didn't they also often use locally produced tokens? I know they did in Canada..
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2007  08:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NumisMattyUK-
In 1837, financial difficulties with the US economy led to the suspension of specie payments(redeeming paper money for gold and silver coinage) and the hoarding of gold and silver coins of US origin. Many copper tokens were privately created to facilitate commerce since gold and silver were not circulating. These copper tokens have become known as "Hard Times tokens" and some displayed political commentary while others were used by businesses for advertising purposes.

BeverlyS-
another thing I forgot to add in my earlier post. The reason that foreign coinage could freely circulate and be redeemed in the US is because the value of money was not based on the face value, but instead the intrinsic value(value based on gold or silver content). This intrinsic value gave the coins their denomination whereas today, face value is assigned to a coin minted with base metals that are worth much less than the face value. Essentially, people didn't worry about the face value of money, the real value was the amount of silver or gold the coins contained. Looking at it from this perspective, it is easy to see why foreign coins circulated for such a long time.
Edited by biokemist6
06/28/2007 08:34 am
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Conder101's Avatar
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2007  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As our dollars and cents coinage was more closely based on the spanish coinage I doubt that there would have been much british silver in circulation, also considering that British silver coinage had never been legal tender in the US that would probably have tended to keep the amount down as well. (Prethen was incorrect when he said that all foreign coins were legal tender. The actual coins that were legal tender were quite limited and in fact there were no legal tender foreign coins in the US in 1833 and there had been none since 1825 when the last legislation expired. Of course just because they weren't legal tender that doesn't mean they didn't circulate. The following year, 1834, the coins of a few countries would again be made legal tender, but not British silver.) There may have also been the fact that until at least the 1820's Britain was having it's own problems keeping their own country supplied with coins and that would also have reduced the chances of there being much of their silver over here.
Edited by Conder101
06/28/2007 9:58 pm
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