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Two Bolivian 8R 1808 - Is There A Class 1 CC?

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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2013  04:06 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hello guys, I would like to show two Bolivian 8R of the same year. I find the first coin is probably a Class one circulating counterfeit (CC) and the second coin is unsure it is a class 2 CC or an original but the coin looks much better than the first coin, at least the lustre is okay. Judge yourself and any comments are welcome, thank you.

1st coin : 26.88gr, 38.8-38.9 mm, SG 10.182(81% Ag), can't sure there is one or two edge overlaps from the pictures. See pictures below:

It seems a test scratch to test the silver content.
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?

Rather crude edging for this coin.
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?

2nd coin: 26.76 gr, 39.5 mm, SG 10.224 (83% Ag)
Impression on the coin: many tiny remnant of silver on the observe side. When compared with the first coin, the portrait seems to be different but I am not sure. See pictures:
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?

I would also like to introduce a method to differentiate the content of Ag in two coins other than performing the specific gravities and ring tests on them. Just slide the two coins down a fixed distance of N52 Neodymium magnets and measure the time used. The longer the time down the magnet slide, the higher the silver content and vice versa. The theory is based on there is a repulsion property between this super magnet with silver in the coin, the interaction between them retards the downward motion of the coin. More silver content in the coin means greater repulsion force and then retardation of the downward force.

In above two coins, the first coin slides down faster than the second coin by a few tenth second, that is, so the first coin contains a lower Ag content, the result is complied with the results of S.G. See the experimental setup below:
Two-Bolivian-8R-1808---Is-There-A-Class-1-CC?
Experimental results: Distance of the slide :12 cm, time for 1st coin = 1.15s, for the 2nd coin = 1.84s
Edited by wonghinghi
12/08/2013 04:10 am
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2013  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting pair of coins. Based on your tests they are not full alloy coins. They would have been fraudulent if issued from the mint in 1808.

The first example does not have an appropriate second overlap just as you suggested. There is a clear short lap between the T and I of Gratia so the opposite lap should be just before the first ordinal. I do not see one in that spot. The segments are quite badly damaged but they do not appear to be absolutely uniform.

The second coin appears to have an appropriate overlap - a clear long overlap between the A of GRATIA and the last 8 in the date. The second overlap is found about where it should be from the last ordinal to above the King's head.

Priority and precise length of the laps should be checked in person under a microscope (it is hard to see in pictures) so I can not be 100% certain they are right.

I also notice that quite clearly the edge design on the second coin was applied by a die made with a two segment punch. The two edge dies were apparently NOT made in the same die shop in my opinion - they are completely unlike one another.

Combining these effects leads me to conclude that the coins are "probably" both Class 1 Counterfeits. The only viable alternative is a Class 3 forgery. Unlikely but not impossible now that average 8Rs bring $30-40 and could be produced for $20-25.

So far, I have not found a clear incentive for the production of Bolivian 8Rs as Class 2 coins. The large Chinese premium was focused solely on Mexico City issues. It does not mean that Class 2 coins were not made to resemble other mints just that the effort to do so is hardly worth it. The premium in China was between 4 and 8% for 8Rs from other mints compared to a range of 16-40% for Mexico City coins. It was just better business to make Mo restrikes.

Locally produced counterfeits for circulation are usually below 70% fine silver. This is also the profit motivation issue at work with locally made counterfeits. Coins right at 80% fine are not found in the historical record. I have detected a few modern forgeries of the Columnario coins that use 720-800 fine silver. That is why I hedge on Class 1 by allowing for the possibility of a Class 3. Class 3 forgeries which look like these are unknown to me - but lately I think anything can happen.

I see both of these coins as falling in the same general category.

I would suggest further research into the output of the Potosi mint to see if the possibility of a "Debased Original" is an option. Debased coins when reported are usually outside the 75-85% range.
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 12/09/2013  08:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So far, I have not found a clear incentive for the production of Bolivian 8Rs as Class 2 coins. The large Chinese premium was focused solely on Mexico City issues.

Very agreed with your point, swamperbob, so they can't be Class 2 CC.

The beauty of both coins is the edge type - more prominent interlocking cirlces and squares. I had seen those modern forgery for the Bolivian 8R, the edges of them are total different from these two coins. So, I rule out both coins are modern forgery.

The first coin is likely to be a contemporary counterfeit for the following reasons: there is a test scratch for silver testing and a dig near 6 o'clock on Reverse for the same purpose, the mint mark is not as decent as it should be, the portrait seems to be different from the second coin.

For the size and appearance of second coin is completely different from the first coin, the ring test for the second coin sounds much better than the first coin, I tend to believe they have a conspicuous difference in Ag content though this was not proved by the S.G. results. I still vote for the second coin as an original.

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/10/2013  01:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The only problem I have with the second coin being classified as real is the incorrect edge application. That edge was made with a die created from a 2 segment punch. The deepest line crossing the edge repeats in an identical pattern.

That punch quite frankly does not make sense. It results in a very irregular edge and it does not match the matrix blocks that have been preserved.
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 12/10/2013  05:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob : did you saw those matrix blocks from Potosi ? The edge from this mint are different (and less regular) than Mexican ones.
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moneditis's Avatar
Spain
110 Posts
 Posted 12/10/2013  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moneditis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Right. Potosí ceca is well known for irregularities...but I have not the pattern of those
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2013  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The edge from this mint are different (and less regular) than Mexican ones.


I agree that the Bolivian edge is different from the Mexican - the individual segments are larger and the wall thicknesses are greater. The Bolivian edge pattern also typically fills the width of the Bolivian edge because Potosi coins tend to be slightly thinner but larger in diameter than Mexican issues. What I do not agree with is that the Bolivian edge can be classified as an irregular edge. The segments along the edge DO NOT VARY APPRECIABLY NOR DO THE WALL THICKNESSES. At least not on a genuine edge.

The ONLY purpose for the added work of milling the coins edges was to preclude clipping of silver by thieves. There is nothing to be gained and a lot to lose if the edge is too irregular. It is the regularity of the edge pattern that makes for success in milling and the covering of clipping difficult.

Clipping is actually a word that is a carry-over from the days of the thin hammered or roller die pressed coins. The edges of these coins were clipped (adjusted) to make the correct weight. But unofficial adjustment of the edges by thieves became a problem. Milling was instituted and coins grew much thicker as a result.

So "clipping" can actually refer to more gentile edge filing to remove silver once milling was adopted.

This is one reason the edge milling was intentionally not too deep. A coin with a worn edge would be weighed by the merchant and a value adjustment would be assessed at point of sale. But only if the coin was suspect - the result of face wear or edge wear or a combination of both.

An irregular edge pattern that can not be relied on encourages clipping because then a re-applied counterfeit edge does not need to match a "standard" edge pattern for that mint. In the 1780s it would have led to rampant clipping.

I have coins in my collection (I do focus on Mexico City) that have had their original edges ground off and NEW edge designs were then applied. This process can remove about 0.50 to 1.5 grams of silver per coin. In practice it happened most often to off center coins - examples that showed TOO MUCH dentil on one side and no dentils on the other. The thief just "took the excess" outside the circle of the die face. I used one such example in my book as an illustration of the class. The coin must have originally been slightly eccentric because the thieves did not remove silver from all of the circumference just the portion that had "long dentils". About 1/3rd of the original edge remains but a false edge has been added to the other 2/3rds. The re-applied edge is a fair copy of a Regal edge but shows irregularities including circles with flattened sides caused by the adjacent rectangle cutting into the circle - a feature typical of a poorly spaced edge die.

So, how many Bolivian coins may have been targeted for that same practice - I do not know. But I would suggest that since the coins of Potosi were typically the largest in diameter of the branch mints, that they too were likely targets for this same scam.

Spotting these slightly "shaved" coins is not easy especially if they circulated for long periods afterwards - but be suspicious of ANY 8R that is 1/2 gram under its theoretical worn weight. I use 26.5 grams as a VERY suspect weight for a Mexico City coin in typical VF grades. Wear to VF does not remove that much silver naturally. When you find a coin like that look for a bad edge - oddly space laps and more than three joins. Your coin may have been clipped.

Now back to the issue that started this -a two segment edge punch.

While no published photos of Bolivian die making tools exist to my knowledge - the matrix blocks I have seen ALL have three segment edge punch patterns. There were in fact at least 2 such engravings PER block. Always in threes. All Matrix blocks for the colonial mints were originally prepared in Spain and were not produced locally. That is why the King's portrait varied during the inter-regnum period mint to mint.

So why 3 edge segments why not 2 or 4?

From an engraver's point of view a 3, 5, 7 or 9 segment punch are the only ones that make sense at all once you realize what the edge die looked like. The edge die was cut into a block of steel at the base of a channel which was cut in the block. The edge die was NOT just a thin steel bar the thickness of the coin as most sketches of edge mills would lead you to believe. I have now seen several edge mills and dies used in the late 18th and early 19th centuries and they are consistent in their appearance. The actual edge design occurs at the bottom of a narrow groove recessed INTO the die block. Depth varies. Side alignment for positioning the segments was in that situation (at the bottom of a channel) difficult or even IMPOSSIBLE depending on the depth. But a punch made the width of the die slot that fit one rectangle INTO the last rectangle already punched makes for quick and perfect alignment time after time. It is just the pressure needed to impress the punch into the die block that limits the number of segments applied at one time. Three appears to be the chosen number as long as one man powered the die press. Today or anytime after steam power presses came to be, the entire edge die could be made in ONE pressing - but not in 1800.

So unless there is some form of solid factual proof to the contrary, I see no reason to presume or even speculate that a 2 segment pattern punch would even exist. Using a two segment punch (or any other even number) should lead to many more serious errors in overlapping than are ever seen in reality.
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