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1776-Ff 8 Reales Does Not Exist - Are You Kidding, Krause?!

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Pillar of the Community

United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2014  7:31 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
We have mentioned the mythical "1776 FF" Mexico 8 Reales that pops here and there several time before in this forum... To reiterate, that date/assayer combo DOES NOT EXIST - it's a modern fake out of China, linked by shared dies/style/others it's found alongside to many other dates/assayers which clearly derive from the same origins. Note the rim area (esp. reverse), in particular...

Well, this was pointed out to me today - thanks, Krause (and in turn NGC, though they're just repeating the info), for not at all vetting what some half-butt dealer put in the comment box... and by doing that, bolstering every thickheaded and/or clueless seller you try to explain this to:

ngccoin.com/poplookup/world-coin-prices.aspx?category=1622&worldcoinid=399089
http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/wo...oinid=399089

Note that this was clearly added after the guide had been published online, as the numbering in the URL is out of sequence with the dates around it.

Does anyone here have someone's ear at Krause or even NGC, or know someone who does? It's one thing to leave out countries as a printing error... its ANOTHER to legitimize fake coins. This MUST be corrected ASAP from Krause/NGC's online listings...

Edited by realeswatcher
01/23/2014 7:49 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2014  02:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is what happens when such publications rely on a single person's opinion for their info.
Pillar of the Community
MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2014  04:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gosh, I already had a poor opinion on grading companies, it's becoming worse and worse with time ...
It's all about money (putting as much coins as possible in plastic coffins, putting stickers to sell them at a higher amount, making minute expertise for coins under 500 usd ...) ... not about science and rigor.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2014  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They are just graders and not really good at authentication of some issues ... GREED IS GOOD ... maybe not? ... as an example in Krause with Mexican War of Independence Issues where dates exist in Krause for certain provincial royalist counterstamps where these pieces are just overstrikes on regular issue host coins with these provincial counterstamps yielding wrong issue years and no real distinction that these counterstamps really only appear in cast hosts as an example ... if Krause is all messed up where does this leave low paid NGC/PCGS workers validating these issues in TPG's? ... once you leave the 19/20thC ... problems happen both in cataloging and with TPG services ... do I have to repeat the GIII ctmk CC8R Sheffield that sold for $1400 from the Eric P. Newman Collection sold by Heritage that was obviosuly a silver plate 8R from arm's length away! assuming you have 20/20 vision ... we have initiated the GNL book with the ANS ... its final and the printing stage (final stage) has been activated ... FYI.


John Lorenzo
United States
Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2014  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Gosh, I already had a poor opinion on grading companies, it's becoming worse and worse with time...

While we've pointed out a lot of grading company "issues", this is Krause's error, not NGC's - the latter is simply regurgitating the info. Nonetheless, it's there...


Quote:
as an example in Krause with Mexican War of Independence...

That's true, what they show can be misleading in not always specifying cast vs. regal struck host. To be fair, I think space constraints restrict the amount the amount of detail they can get into, which hurts for a complicated series such as that.


Quote:
They are just graders and not really good at authentication of some issues... if Krause is all messed up where does this leave low paid NGC/PCGS workers validating these issues in TPG's?

See, I can't accept that about the graders, though the source of the problem may lie more properly with the shot-callers rather than the rushed grunts... However, even the grunts are professionals... collectors and/or dealers who have built up enough experience with coins to qualify for such a position... AND it's the type of thing where you also get off-the-clock exposure to it (as a hobby/side gig). No, they can't know everything about every type of coin - but shouldn't you be aware of to look a bit more carefully at certain things in certain types of coinage (especially with a popular segment like Spanish Colonial).

I honestly expect a bit more out of grading companies for $20 a pop or whatever than out of a all-countries guidebook... though that's no excuse. Popular series, popular date, basic info... get it right.


Quote:
do I have to repeat the GIII ctmk CC8R Sheffield that sold for $1400 from the Eric P. Newman Collection sold by Heritage that was obviosuly a silver plate 8R from arm's length away!

There was simply no excuse for that piece, from any end (let alone the other couple there that were also CC, but a bit less obvious)... But yeah, that case is telling about the situation.
Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2014  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dosmundos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Just my Two Cents worth:

- Krause is not the bible. Just as with any coin catalog, there can be errors and omissions. The responsability is with the grading company. They are supposedly the people who provide an expert opinion on the authenticity and the grade of a coin. So they should simply be aware of any deficiencies of the catalog they use.

- Anybody who uses Krause for anything more than a quick reference can't be helped. Even more so when we are dealing with emergency issues such as the War for Independence period.

- Anybody who uses TPG for anything else but pushing common coins up into categories where you can sell them as rarities to people who are too rich or too lazy to think for themselves, can't be helped

Okay, I've deliberately exagerrated a little bit on the last comment, but you get my point...
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