What Is The Value? 1857 Lge Cent Dilema

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Author	Replies: 8 / Views: 1,196
Jim1953 Pillar of the Community United States 2600 Posts	Posted 07/21/2007 10:51 am One of the things I love about estate auctions with coins, is that quite often you are looking at and bidding on coins that have been removed from view for many years. In other words new, raw coins. I went to such an auction last night and as is typical, the paper advertisement only stated "coins and other collectibles" so you go in to preview an hour before hand totally ignorant to what they have. Often, most of what they have is pretty bad, last night was different. As soon as I can, I will post pics of my buys. It was the one that got away that is bothering me. There was a 1857, small date, large cent in R/B MS condition. Except for a small ding on the rim on the reverse, this coins was amazing. I had my Grey Sheets and the Red Book as reference material and bid the coin up to $785 before giving up. It sold for $825 which is way above anything my books said. This morning I look at Heritage Auctions archives and find many examples of poorer grades and cleaned coins selling for $300 and $400 with very good examples selling close to $2000. This coin was easily worth that and I am now kicking myself. My question is, just how far behind the real current value are our reference materials. I really like the Grey Sheets, but they are setting wholesale values and I now wonder if they intentionally try to hold prices back. Typically I can take their stated value and multiply by 1.5 and be close to retail but they are way off on this one. Jim Report this Post to the Staff

amac44 Member United States 3242 Posts	Posted 07/21/2007 11:20 am I also go to many auction and am finding the same thing as you!I alway run a copy of the the grey sheet prices before I go,Its like they have double ask price in the last 6 auction this summer!! Report this Post to the Staff
Conder101 Bedrock of the Community United States 17884 Posts	Posted 07/30/2007 4:01 pm One problem you can have with the 1857 small date is that there are four die vaieties of that coin and two of the varieties are proof only. Sometimes these proof only varieties get sold as regular coins because they are just identified as "1857 small date" But the knowledgeable copper people recognize them and bid accordingly. This can result in unrealistic prices in the guides because the compilers don't realize what has happened. They just see an 1857 small date go for a high price and use it to adjust the guides. Report this Post to the Staff
Jim1953 Pillar of the Community United States 2600 Posts	Posted 07/31/2007 09:25 am Condor, what reference material do you suggest on large cents that would explain these die combinations? I still have a chance to buy this coin and I want to do further analysis on it. Jim Report this Post to the Staff
Conder101 Bedrock of the Community United States 17884 Posts	Posted 07/31/2007 12:47 pm The standard reference for the series is Attribution Guide of United States Large Cents 1840 - 1857 by J R Grellman and Jules Reiver. This isn't a book you will just be able to go to the library or a book store and just pick up. If you are lucky you might be able to get it through inter-library loan, or if you are an ANA member from their library. You might be able to get it from a numismatic literature dealer, and it is available from the author Bob Grellman, but it is a $100 book. If you just want to check to see if this piece may be a proof check these things on the reverse. Look for a rust lump on the top surface of the N in UNITED where the diagonal meets the right upright. Another rust lump on the top surface of the R in AMERICA in the middle of the right leg. Look for the appearance of the Ein ONE being punched over another letter. The evidence will be in the field area between the middle serif and the bottom leg of the E below it. If you find those things you have N-3. (Proof only) If they aren't there, look for fine die polish lines covering the entire reverse of the coin running down to the right. Look for a die spike running down to the left in and from the denticals above the TE in STATES. Look for a strong lump on the bottom edge of the right foot of the T in CENT. If you see these things then you have N-5 (proof only) If it doesn't match these look for three strong lines down from the earlob. N-4 Several fine die lines from the denticals to UNIT. N-2 There are other identifying features but those are the strongest ones. Sorry I don't have pictures of the diagrams from the book available. I wouldn't post them anyway because of copyright restrictions. Report this Post to the Staff
Jim1953 Pillar of the Community United States 2600 Posts	Posted 07/31/2007 1:56 pm Thx for the help, Condor. I am interested in purchasing this book and have Googled it and tried Amazon with no luck. Called Barnes and Noble and they cannot access it. You mention buying from Mr. Grellman directly and this makes sense as he published it himself but I cannot find him to order. Do you have any other thought on how to go about finding one of these. The Library of Congress has three of them, but unfortunately they are not in the mood to sell. Thx again, Jim Report this Post to the Staff
t360 Pillar of the Community United States 2703 Posts	Posted 07/31/2007 6:10 pm Hey Jim1953 Charles Davis has this book on die varieties by Grellman http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/charl...=705&large=0 Report this Post to the Staff
Conder101 Bedrock of the Community United States 17884 Posts	Posted 08/04/2007 11:20 am t360, has given you a good source for the book. Charlie is a good guy and his price is basicly the same as Bob Grellman's. Bob's contact address is Bob Grellman PO Box 161055 Altamonte Springs FL 32716-1055 His price is $100 postpaid, and he will autograph it on request. Report this Post to the Staff
Jim1953 Pillar of the Community United States 2600 Posts	Posted 08/04/2007 11:43 am Thx, everyone. I have ordered it. Jim Report this Post to the Staff
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